71. Sue Stockdale: Exploring potential

Sue Stockdale

Eveline Van Den Heuvel takes over the host’s role to interview Sue Stockdale. She discovers how Sue inspires people to step into the unknown and explore more of their own potential. Sue, who usually hosts this podcast series, is a motivational speaker and executive coach working with leaders in some of the world’s top companies.

Sue Stockdale is the first UK woman to ski to the magnetic North Pole, and author of EXPLORE: A Life of Adventure which describes how from challenging beginnings, she embarked on a lifetime of adventure, exploring some of the world’s most extreme environments including the North Pole, Antarctica, and Greenland. In the book Sue shares important life lessons gained from these adventures and describes how the mindset, discipline and commitment needed for adventurous activities is also useful in professional life.  Find out more about Sue Stockdale on her website | LinkedIn | Twitter and her book EXPLORE

Today’s podcast host is Eveline Van Den Heuvel, an innovative concept developer taking seemingly disparate ideas and pieces of information and weaving them together in a unique, often highly transformative way for her clients.

Podcast Host – Eveline Van Den Heuvel

She is co-founder of Inward Creations, an agency that creates innovative concepts in the space of wellbeing, as well as being a facilitator and writer.

This series is kindly supported by Squadcast –the remote recording platform which empowers podcasters by capturing high-quality audio and video conversations.  Also thanks to Maureen Gibbins for her support of this Access to Inspiration podcast episode.

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Key Quotes:

“I see life as an experiment.”

“If we approach the unknown with curiosity, rather than judgment, that can bring a new sense of perspective.”

“If I can show up and be a beacon and an inspiration to those that I’m engaging with on a daily basis in a very small way, that’s just like a ripple effect.”

“The skill of noticing and the skill of adapting are two things that enable any of us to survive.”

“What’s the opposite of conscious leadership – unconscious leadership.”

“The value of coaching is it gives a chance for the individual that’s being coached to take time out to observe themselves.”

“Until we’re comfortable enough to be an outsider, to be the lone voice, to be the one who’s the disruptor or the challenger, we will stay with something that isn’t serving us.”

“By looking at another person’s experience to draw insight – that brings a new observation to you.”

Eveline Van Den Heuvel interviews Sue Stockdale transcription

Eveline: Hi, good morning, Sue. For the listeners. I am Eveline Van den Heuvel and today I have the honour of interviewing Sue. And I’m very excited about today. It’s my first time in this position and I’m excited cause I have a lots of questions for you. Especially when it comes to inspiration, of course, which is what the podcast is all about. So I did a little bit of research, a little bit of homework of course, I’ve been a listener to many of the actual interviews and series. And I also noticed that at the end of series two, you shared a little mini interview about yourself with Roger Rocka and I’m wondering six series later, what would you say has been the most inspiring part of creating this podcast and doing these interviews?

Sue: Nothing like starting off with a difficult question, Eveline I think there’s a constant inspiration I get from the unexpected, because the way that we construct the questions to engage with each guest is a very broad framework for a conversation. But just like having a conversation with somebody, you never know where it’s going to go, and what’s going to be uncovered and I’m constantly I’m amazed, inspired, and in awe of what the guests share in the conversations. And I just am always mindful of the third party in the conversation, which is the listener, and what am I doing that’s helping to create a really interesting experience for the listener to get a sense of that person that’s communicating with me. And when I find a question or a line of inquiry and then that comes out, it’s really satisfying.

Eveline: Beautiful. What a beautiful answer. It sounds like there is something really interesting there about moving into the unknown. And maybe we can go into that a little bit because of course you are an adventurer in many, many ways. And maybe it would be interesting for our listeners. Just do a bridge on who is Sue. So what’s the unknown bits of Sue. So who is Sue outside of the host of this inspiration podcast?

Sue: An explorer and an adventurer is probably what I would say and applying that to every aspect of the life that I have, so that can be working as an executive coach and exploring with those that I coach helping them to explore their potential. And as leaders, what are the unknown areas that they want to tackle that might be within their business, within their organization or within themselves as human beings and as leaders. So also then as an Explorer and adventurer using the stories of my own experiences to inspire other people and then I also write about my experience. So I kind of see that if life is an experiment for me and I can share some of the learnings I’ve had on that life’s experiment along the way, then maybe that will serve as some inspiration for other people to be experimenting with their own journeys.

Eveline: Hm, thank you. I really like this analogy of life as an experiment. And I hear you saying that as an executive coach, but maybe also in this creating inspiration for others, there was something about approaching the unknown from a certain point of view. And I know for myself also from speaking to others that the unknown can also be something frightening and can often stop us that in our tracks. So how would you say that your orientation is towards the unknown? So how do you make that unknown approachable or less of a scary territory to enter?

Sue: Yeah, I approach it with curiosity. First of all, Eveline. And it’s a little bit like if you were driving along a road and you, you saw a path going off into the forest and it was a straight path, and very clear and definite, that would be uninteresting to me. If there was a path that was windy and leading into some trees and you didn’t quite know where you were heading, I probably want to stop my car and follow that path because it would draw me out. I’d be thinking what are the possibilities what’s at the end of this path. It isn’t known and therefore looking at it with a positive perspective. So I think if any of us approach the unknown with curiosity, rather than judgment, that can bring one sense of perspective. And then the second thing is not necessarily exploring the unknown alone. And particularly in a coaching relationship, I really try to make the space between myself and the coachee safe enough so that they feel really supported and secure. And from that perspective, then they feel safe enough to go into the unsafe, the unknown.

Eveline: Beautiful. Thank you. Sue. I would love to turn that idea of the seeking of companionship or seeking of help into the unknown towards the listeners a little bit, because one of the things that I’m really curious about hearing from you. What questions would you encourage your listeners to ask to maybe a stranger or a friend or a relative in order to start creating this access to inspiration in their own daily life?

Sue: I think it’s back to holding onto curiosity. When we meet a stranger or when we meet somebody who you’ve known for many, many years is to engage with that person with, what I would call fresh eyes and not having a judgment about them having curiosity and then just expressing that. If it’s to somebody you’ve known for 25 years, we’ve never spoken about this before, but it’s always been curious for me as to how is it that you do such and such a thing so brilliantly. Who doesn’t want to answer that question?

Eveline: Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. Beautiful.

Sue: So I think it’s, it’s the non-judgment, its the curiosity, and it’s being brave enough to just ask the question.

Eveline: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m going to take this into the state of the world that we’re in right now. So many of us may be looking at the state of the world right now and feeling quite deflated. Grief-stricken maybe, also you feel that it’s irrelevant what we do and how we do it. I was wondering if from your point of view, with your curiosity about the world and the unknown and the belief that you also have, in all of us individuals reaching out are to our greatest potentials. If you could speak to that a little bit. So what is your personal experience? Towards the way that you’re looking at the world right now and also what, Yeah, How would you encourage all of us? Maybe our listeners to stand in a time like this.

Sue: Yeah, it is indeed very uncertain and changing times. Eveline there’s absolutely no doubt about that. For me, there’s something about having empathy for anyone in an uncertain or unknown situation. So in the current conflict environment is having empathy for the people caught up in it. Not getting so caught up in one’s emotions, just like a coach, if I get so empathetic towards the person I’m coaching, I can’t do my best service, which is being objective, being there with them, but not being subsumed by the experience. And I take that principle and apply it into global world situation as well. No matter what we’re facing. Good times or bad times in the world is to be understanding it, empathizing with it and not getting subsumed by it, and also necessarily not trying to inadvertently or to quickly jump into rescue.

There’s a model we use in coaching, the drama triangle, where there’s three parties, there’s the victim, there’s the rescuer. And there’s the persecutor. In a coaching context and you could take this to a world context as well. Somebody is seen as the victim and they want somebody to come in and rescue them. And that’s often what they want from a coach. Come and rescue me, tell me what to do. And then there’s the third-party that drama triangle is the persecutor as well. And each person can be in each of those three positions at different times. So it’s knowing not to become the rescuer too quick. Just like in an emergency situation, emergency services personnel, don’t jump in and help immediately arrive at a road traffic accident. They stop, breathe, and really take in the whole situation and then make discerning decisions as to what action they will take or what action they will direct others to take. Even though they might be emotionally impacted by the situation, they still have to take it from a position of neutrality. So that’s what I tried to do in the global events. I can’t change the world. I can change my attitude towards the world and if I can show up and do my best to be a beacon and be an inspiration to those that I’m engaging with on a daily basis in a very small way, that’s just like a ripple effect. Maybe it makes their day better, which in turn then enables them to shine and show up for other people better.

Eveline: Absolutely. And I’m just, I’m curious, can you say a little bit more because there’s something really powerful. I find in this ability to, say I’m thinking about what can I do and I’m thinking about how it will be received. As well. So what is it like to be the other person, right? There’s this movement between you and the other person consistently? I think that’s really interesting and essential. And have you always done that? I’m just curious, is that always, is this something that came naturally or is this something that you do with a certain amount of awareness? How do you, how do you integrate this in your life?

Sue: Yeah, I think I’ve always done it. Eveline. And you’re reminding me of my book Explore: A Life of Adventure, and as part of that, I talk about when I was very young, I was adopted and I find myself, plonked into a life with people who aren’t my birth parents. So somewhere, I think at the back of my mind, I innately learned how to adapt, to survive and to be noticing and observing how other people were behaving in order to fit in. The skill of noticing and the skill of adapting are two things that enable any of us to survive. So to do that, we have to be cognizant of the other. Not just of ourselves, because it will be the effect of ourselves on the other that enables us to fit in or not.

Eveline: Yeah. very much, I think it’s also interesting that you strike a delicate balance between focusing on the other end, focusing on yourself. Right. I think in some ways, your story is also infused with a care for Sue. And I would love to hear you speak a little bit more about that. So what is it that you do for yourself to, to nourish and strengthen how you feel about yourself?

Sue: Yeah, well, I love eating. That’s that’s always a care for Sue.. Just making me feel good. I love exercising. So not only to burn off those calories of the things I’m eating, but to feel the sense of movement, connecting with my body all my senses. I take time to just get away from the hubbub, the busy-ness of every day, whether it’s a walk in nature, which is what I’ve tried to do every single day to just enrich myself and remind myself I’m part of a much bigger world. I want to do something for me, it’s me in relation to, and in service of a bigger context. One of the things I learned from the Arctic when you’re out there you are just so minute and insignificant in this world. In those extreme environments we see sort of starkly is not driven by us as human beings. It’s mother nature has got bigger effect on the world and we have as individuals.

And to be reminded of that every day then gives context. It gives us a sense of stepping out of self and into a bigger picture and therefore, to be effective in that bigger system, in that bigger world, I’ve got to be able to survive and to survive and to look after myself. So, some might argue either way. I look at life is very simplistic. It’s just, basic survival instincts to enable us to be effective in this world. And. I think that could be argued. That is correct. It may be simple, but it’s not always easy.

Eveline: I was just going to say

Sue: that’s the difference.

Eveline: the simple things are often the hardest. I would love to go a little bit into that polar expedition. As I was preparing for our interview today, I was walking around actually an imagining you on a month long eight hours a day, in these extreme Arctic temperatures. And I was wondering like, was there ever a moment that you faced during that month that you thought I can’t do it, or maybe I Misjudged my own capacity.

Sue: Yeah, there was several occasions where I felt, it was almost going to be impossible to go on. I had blisters on my heels that were enormous and rubbing my back of my boots minute to minute as I was moving. The intense cold, just saps your energy. It takes away your focus and physical capabilities. So there’s many things that can be causing you to want to stop, but there is no choice. Even if you stop you, can’t be guaranteed to be collected by any sort of rescue services where you’ve stopped, they may not be able to be a plane to land. So you don’t really have a choice is the way I look at it. The only choice you have is to continue on. And if you can’t cope with the next hour or the next half an hour, then can just get through the next five minutes. And I’ve found that by breaking down a big goal, a big task, a seemingly impossible obstacle into what’s just the first step I can take. And I’m just going to try that and see what happens. I’ll get through the next minute. Okay, great. I’ve done that. Oh, well, I’ll try the next minute. And the next minute, and before you know where you are, you’ve traveled 30 minutes and then you think, well, if I’ve done 30 minutes, I can do 60 minutes. So having a ability to break down a big . Seemingly insurmountable goal into the smallest of steps that you can practically take and then doing it, taking the action despite the uncomfortableness, just keep doing that. Take the next step.

Eveline: Amazing, do you feel that you’ve taken this philosophy? Cause this is a life philosophy into your work beyond our life, beyond the Arctic.

Sue: Yes, because when I document my life’s journey and the career I’ve had, that is pretty much the approach I’ve always taken. What is it – they say luck equals preparation times opportunity. So have I prepared myself well enough to seize those opportunities when they come along? Yes. I started at my career with a grand aspirations. I’ve achieved many things that I wanted to do, and I’ve not achieved many things I wanted to do. So it hasn’t always been great success. I come at life from a perspective of if I’m just being a human being. That’s good enough. Perhaps when I was younger, I thought I need to be something or have a certain job title, or have a certain amount of money as a as a means to show how successful I was and getting to the north pole. I realized that I’d never imagined that that was possible, and yet it happened. And maybe there was a bigger reason. And the bigger reason was that if I could just share my own story, my own human story, about how I did that and the steps I took, that that is enough. So it almost went from the big to the very small, and maybe that’s a life lesson that’s been the most important one that I’ve had to learn.

Eveline: Beautiful. I feel like that warrants a pause and a deep breath. Thank you, Sue. Ah, wow. Where do we go from here? Ah, I have one, it’s a bit of a sidestep, but this one comes from your mantra, which speaks to me and is on your website. And I’m going to read it for our listeners. So you described your mantra as we all can achieve more than we imagined as possible. Like you just said, but often the only person stopping you is. you. For those of us who haven’t gone through the month of walking towards the Arctic with no choice and we often do have choices, or we get in our own ways, we stop ourselves dead in our tracks. Right. Can you speak to us about how we might get out of our own way so to speak? Or how do we keep moving?

Sue: Well, maybe one thing I’ve learned is back to what I said already, Eveline, is to hone that the skill of observation and curiosity. So if there’s something we want to change and get out of our own way, notice when that happens, notice is it in certain situations with certain people or when a certain issue is raised and with that, noticing and the observation that will give us data. From that data, we’ll get some new insight. Insight, brings us choice. We could choose to just remain with that and say I’m happy to get in my own way. I’m not moving forward or changing this or that insight brings the choice to say, maybe I could do something differently. I could think a different way. Maybe I could have a different belief that would be more helpful, and therefore maybe one choice is well, how do I move forward? And there’s lots of resources out there that we can tap into, but now you are a step forward. So we come back to the very small steps, observation and noticing. If I said to you, how many red cars have you seen recently? Are there a lot of red cars in the town that you live in the area that you live. Guaranteed for any of our listeners? The next minute you see a red car or you’ll see a red car because you’ve embedded a thought to notice. And that’s the first step for me to get out of our own ways to notice. When we’re getting in our own way and then have that choice to do something about it.

Eveline: I love that. And I’m so grateful for your ability to, to zoom out and then to zoom back into this tiny, tiny step, because I feel like all of us can access that. Right. Okay. That’s that’s beautiful and wonderful. Thank you. So we know each other through the a network of conscious leaders, and I’m really curious to hear you speak to what does conscious leadership mean to you?

Sue: I take the word conscious. And that to me means being awake and alive and what’s the opposite of conscious leadership is unconscious leadership. For me, unconscious means habitual behavior, not paying attention, doing things because we’ve always done them. So when we move into conscious leadership, we’re now coming at how we lead with new awareness. Awareness gives you choice. I see leaders in organizations these days, fill up my day with activities often allowing very little time in between each activity. If it’s a day of zoom meetings no time to think no time to necessarily be conscious. therefore, what do we do? We fall back on unconscious. We fall back on. Habitual behaviors, so the conscious, but is about slowing down, being present, thinking, creating enough space that gives you time to take action and do something differently.

Eveline: Yeah.

Sue: So it’s what I’ve been alluding to already. You might describe it’s conscious. Self-leadership. All we’re doing in the business world is applying it as a leader of a large organization.

Eveline: Thank you. So I’m reminded of this. One of my favorite philosophers, John O’Donohue he speaks to this knowing of thyself that we, we have eyes that look outwards, we can never fully see ourselves. Even if we’re looking at ourselves in the mirror, we’re always just seeing one side of ourselves. And when I think about consciousness, I think about that, like how able. To fully see ourselves. And what is the role of other, friends, partners, our environment to do so, how would you, how would you speak to that?

Sue: Well, and I love your analogy- how do we ask questions of others? Seek feedback, get their perspective on ourselves. That’s really the value of coaching for many organizations, is it gives a chance for the individual that’s being coached to take time out and to observe themselves. Sometimes from that third position, that neutral position to ask input from somebody else who’s, hasn’t got any vested interests. Like, how are you seeing me? What am I doing? What are you noticing? So it gives us additional data and then it gives us that way to calibrate a choice for change. I think for any of us, it’s difficult to ask for feedback if I said to you now, so what are you noticing about how I’m coming across there now I’ve got to have that sort of eek moment what makes you see it? It’s the unknown. So what would you say to that?

Eveline: So then how you’re coming across is you’re taking your time. And I interpret that as, as taking a lot of reverence for the questions that are being asked. And really feeling into what it stirs in you and answering from that place. So I noticed there’s a certain slowness, a certain not jumping in right away, but just taking it in and then answering and. I noticed also like a, a lightness and a spark in your face. There’s a lot of smiles. There’s a joy of being here maybe, and then having a conversation like this. . Thank you for inviting me into the feedback round right away. Just like just putting it into practice right away. I had a question about that I was curious if there anything that you’ve become more conscious or aware about within yourself? Right. You’re talking about self-leadership so this is applicable basically to everybody. So what have you learned about or something that you noticed and had a great impact on you.

Sue: Well, a couple of things spring to mind. One is my choice to write my memoir forced me, forced me. I chose to reflect on my life had experiences in a different way than perhaps I had done previously. So I did stop and slow down and really say, how did I really feel about it and reflecting on, so what did that mean for me? And how did that show up in how I then behaved afterwards or at that time? So what that reflection. informed me about I, and I was also feeling within my body. I could really sense it, that I just needed space. I wasn’t giving myself space to do that reflection and thinking, which is where the magic occurs very often. So I consciously then made some different choices with how I spend my time and who I’m working with in that time to create more space for myself. Now that has a consequence. If there’s more space and maybe sometimes there’s less revenue. I trust at that moment to say the right things will be coming into my world. If I create that space. And I absolutely know from previous experience in my life, every single time I do that every single time, I think, oh no. Something even better than I imagined shows up. So it kind of keeps coming back to a life lesson. That one needs to learn is listening to my body, creating the space, trusting that the things will come into my world that need to come into my world. And then using that curiosity and excitement when it shows up and grabbing the opportunities when they come along.

Eveline: oh, so beautiful. That really feels very inspiring to me. And I think it’s very radical actually. Like it’s a radical thing to say, I’m going to slow down, but for all the reasons that you also mentioned, I mean, sometimes it’s not just revenue, but it’s this idea of letting go of something that’s habitual. And we’re so comforted in that in ways that we don’t even maybe acknowledge often like, okay. But when I’m doing and doing and doing my thing, then I’m comfortable there. I’ve done this for a long time and waiting or creating an opening for something I don’t know, can feel really uncomfortable. Yes. So I like that. Thank you.

Sue: If I could just add to what you’re seeing there, Eveline I think there’s an acceptance of the consequence of somewhere in that activity is to be the outsider because sometimes we’re doing things or we’re engaging in a certain behavior in order to fit in. And until we’re comfortable enough to be an outsider, to be the lone voice, to be the one who’s the disruptor or the challenger, we will stay with something that isn’t serving us. And I just think it’s important to accept and recognize that that’s a consequence of growth, perhaps.

Eveline: Hm, it’s really beautiful. And it takes me in so many directions because when I look at your journey, I see that you have taken radical steps of solitude, right? How do you find solitude? How do you find that you are able to move to the outsider view? What’s the practice around that for Okay. you?

Sue: What I’m holding it in my head. If, even if I’m sitting in a chair, if I’m coaching somebody, I’m visualizing the different spaces, the space of the other, the coachee the space of myself, and then there’s a third space. The other, the outsider the observer. And I’m consciously imagining myself moving between those three.

What’s it like from where I am? What’s it like for the other person who might be receiving what I’m saying? The question I’m asking, what might be going on between the two of us and that constant observation and mental movement around that model helps me to get perspective when I’m coaching somebody. A friend of mine many years ago was doing NLP neuro-linguistic programming, qualification, and she wanted to model somebody who had a particular skill in something. So she interviewed me to model the skill of decision. And when she asked me a whole bunch of questions and at the end of it, what we uncovered was that the best quality decisions I made were always when I was involved in doing some sort of movement. If you ask me to sit in a seat and make a decision, it would be okay, ask me to get up and have a walk and think about it and move. It would be a much better quality decision. So I’ve come to learn that something about the physical nature of movement helps to stimulate my brain in a particular way. Enriches the decisions I make or what I’m doing. So back to my noticing and noticing that’s a pattern, something that’s helpful, I’m going to do more of it.

Eveline: That’s so fascinating. I love that. Thank you so much, but I’m always also fascinated by this mental model. I was like, wow. Yeah, amazing that you do that. And I want to take it. back to our listeners because I think this is really cool. And if I’m listening and I have not really consciously embarked on this journey of self observation or noticing. What would you encourage me to do? Like what first step could I take to start? Maybe noticing myself a little bit more,

Sue: I’m wondering whether one route could be, is noticing in others first. And that’s part of access to inspiration is maybe the listener is not to say in somebody a practice or energy in their voice, listening to somebody else’s experience. I’ll pretty much bet that many of the listeners are equating that experience that they’re listening to, to their own situation and saying, oh, I wonder how they could do that or wonder why they think like that. So they’re not looking at themselves directly. First. They’re looking at the other person’s experience to draw insight that maybe then just brings a new observation to themselves. A new question to think about I think that’s a great place to start because what we’re now doing is we’re applying curiosity and not judgment to another person. And that’s what I would just introduce the listener to think about as I’m listening to these podcasts or engaging with people in the future. Can I bring a little bit more curiosity to how I engage and interact with that experience

Eveline: at that makes me excited too, because I feel like that’s a different way as well, listening and engaging with the podcast, it’s like this active listening, it’s this way of saying like, okay, well what’s striking my curiosity as opposed to, I’m just listening to this beautiful conversation between two people really noticing myself, basically in that triangle that you create between yourself and the other person. and the observer. Well what am I noticing is really striking my curiosity. I hope that that listeners will go back and listen to a new episode or an episode they’ve already listened to. And then they’re really try this try, like, what are the questions that I would ask this person in the interviewer seat today? I love that. Thank you. That’s really cool.  I imagine that a lot of the coaching work that you do, or the inspirational speaker work that you do It’s more a one person team, you’re more of a solo preneur than, and in this situation you’re co-creating, and I wonder if there’s a difference in that experience and what extra value maybe you’re gaining from that, that process of co-creating with somebody else and what it’s been teaching you.

Sue: Well, that’s a great question, Eveline. my co-founder Clive is a great person to be a catalyst for thinking and ideas. So when we’re thinking about guests, we would like to interview. And then once we’ve got a guest identified, then to help the guests to feel safe enough to come into the conversation, having an idea what’s going to happen. We create a draft list of questions ahead of time that we then send to the person to say, here’s a general outline of some of the topic areas and themes. Rarely do we ever follow that list? But it gives a degree of safety and confidence and certainty to guests of which over half our guests are first-time podcasters. So they’re not familiar with this environment when we’re creating that list of questions. That’s where Clive and I sit down and have this conversation and say, okay, what would we love to know from that person? What do we think would be the things that will be really interesting to learn about what might our listeners want to discover, and then we’re using that co-creation activity to really broaden our perspectives and in a way, I see that joint journey between the two of us in the creation of the podcast. A little bit similar, like how I work with a coachee is co-creating the experience. In fact, I was speaking. a coachee this morning and saying, it’s like a joint journey we’re on. Sometimes I’m in the driver’s seat with a steering wheel and they’re in the passenger’s seat. And sometimes I’m in the passenger seat and they’ve got the steering wheel, but together we’re going on a journey and we have some sort of map. We know what kind of endpoint we’re leaving for, but it’s a journey that we’re going to explore and learn things together. And that is the principle. I think the Clive and I take with this podcast. For example, the impact report that we produced last year, the idea for that only came out because we thought how are they were going to measure the impact. Let’s be curious and find the way of getting the answer to that question. So things have evolved because we’ve both been in a position to throw in our ideas together, listen to one another and be curious about what might come as a result of it. And I hope that as a result of doing that, then we’d get a better experience for everybody.

Eveline: beautiful. Well having read the impact report and being a listener, I feel like you are having a great end result for your listener. I have one more question on the back of that, around your coaching process. Cause I think that’s quite a unique process. So for those interested in coaching, what’s the value of, of co-creating a journey together, as opposed to, maybe the more traditional view on coaching. I sit in a room and I share and somebody else sort of guides me.

Sue: I like to really try and set that straight at the beginning to say, we are both here to learn something. I don’t have the answer already. I have a lot of insight about human behavior and pattern recognition and understanding about how people can move forwards. And we’re going to have a joint exploration. So there’s a subtlety about, yes, I bring myself, but it’s how I bring myself. And it’s not about, here’s why I think you should do, because I’ve done it and it will work for you as well. I’m connected enough with all of myself, when I show up in that conversation, I think. Look at it as a system. Me and the coachee are in a system together, like back to my little diagram, you, me and the third person take that, hold that image in one’s mind. And then think about how are we going to make that system be most effective. So that the coachee that’s paying that money to get the coaching gets real value from that interaction together. So I do have a whole range of experience from a bunch of different sectors. Some might say, well, what’s the north pole got to do with coaching a business leader, an awful lot to do with it because it’s about the unknown. Exactly what I said back at the start. If we have got the curiosity, the ability to observe as human beings, we will be able to adapt and survive in this world. And that is the wonderful. Amazing experience that that individual gets in a coaching interaction.

Eveline: So beautiful. The inner expeditions with Sue Stockdale well, Thank you, Sue.

Sue: Thank you, Eveline. It’s been lovely to speak to you today.

Eveline: Oh, it’s been a delight. This was really, really fun. Thank you. Thank you for having me on and, and stepping into this unknown, cause I didn’t send you any questions or anything like that. So I really put you through the work today. It’s been an incredible learning experience for me as well. So thank you for this opportunity.

Sue: Thank you, Eveline and it’s been great to be on the receiving end of your insightful and thoughtful questions and hope it gives an enriching experience for the listener as well.

Eveline: I’m sure it will.

Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)

Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)