Sue Stockdale talks to Jenna Howieson who works as a Diversity, Equity & Inclusion professional in Scotland. She loves travelling, having visited close to 30 countries to date, and reflects that travel helped her explore her identity. Whilst attending a roundtable meeting with the CEO at work on gender and women in the workplace, Jenna was curious to find out what the company’s approach to LGBT inclusion was, and asked a question about this. This ultimately led to Jenna switching her career to educate others about LGBTQ+ and creating a role for herself as a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion professional in the company.
In addition to her 5 years of experience in the workplace, she also runs an LGBTQ+ travel blog, where she shines a light on the nuances of traveling and living as a queer person in today’s world. Jenna has previously spoken at conferences such as the Stonewall UK Workplace Inclusion Conference in Scotland and runs educational workshops on LGBTQ+ inclusion for organisations of all sizes.
Connect with Jenna Howieson on Linkedin and Instagram and her Blog
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‘During the last year I’ve realised there’s always challenges and new opportunities and adventures. They just look very different.’
‘Travel brings so much opportunity to discover your identity, whatever that looks like.’
‘I’ve just always had that mentality that you don’t need someone else to be able to do something.’
‘I wasn’t going to wait around at home for someone else to come with me before I got to see the world.’
‘Thailand is always top of my list when I’m celebrating the countries that I’ve had really positive experience in and where we felt completely welcomed.’
“Diversity, equity and inclusion across the board is a lot more than just LGBT inclusion.’
‘I’ve moved from being the learner, into educating others as well, that was a big step.’
“I think it’s not being afraid to fail and understanding that everyone is human. We are not all perfect. Sometimes we’re going to slip up. Sometimes we’re going to use the wrong language, but for me, it’s always intent over anything else.’
‘I definitely wasn’t someone that was popular in high school. I didn’t really fit in, but I think that by staying true to myself, staying independent and staying authentic led me to where I am today.’
Jenna Howieson transcription
[00:00:00] Sue: hi there. I’m Sue Stockdale. Your host for the podcast. Our aim is to provide you with inspiration through conversation. You wouldn’t find celebrities in this podcast, but you will find amazing people, including explorers, entrepreneurs, and environmentalists. Each of that amazing stories has the power to strengthen shape and challenge our views of the world. I hope the conversation ignites new possibilities within you, makes you think and behave differently as a result of listening to them. You may not know our podcast is not for profit, which means that we don’t aim to make money. But we do want to measure the impact that it has on you our lovely listeners. What are you inspired to do by listening to these episodes?
We’ve created a short three minute survey, which you can link to in the show notes. And we’d love to know what effect this podcast has on you. You can leave us a voice note too if you prefer. All the information, you’ll find on links on the show are on the website. Well, today’s guest I’m really looking forward to speaking to her name is Jenna Howieson and she discovered her identity through travel, and her career calling, by being curious. She now educates others about LGBTQ+ in her role as a diversity equity and inclusion professional, she runs an LGBTQ plus travel blog called the Jenna Way where she shines a light on the nuances of traveling and living as a queer person in today’s world.
I learned a lot from Jenna about inclusion. Including how we should ask guests for their pronouns at the start of each conversation. Jenna says that we should not be afraid to slip up because we are all humans and sometimes we do use the wrong language. The most important thing is to recognize the person’s intent behind what they communicate. Well, I hope you enjoy what she has to say. Welcome to the podcast, Jenna.
[00:02:04] Jenna: Hi, thanks for having me.
[00:02:06] Sue: It’s really lovely to speak to you today, and I’m intrigued to learn all about your interests in travel and about your blog and about you as a person. The first bit of research I did, Jenna was looking at your travel blog and you described yourself there as authentic, queer, and unstoppable. And it was making me think that COVID times perhaps the unstoppable was a bit of a challenge, something else stopped you. How did you cope with COVID?
[00:02:32] Jenna: Yeah. Oh, that’s so I think I have unstoppable there in my tagline, probably as a reminder to myself, as much as anything that I can do anything and I can achieve whatever I want to achieve. But yes, in the very real sense of the word travel has not been so possible for the last year or so. For the last particularly four or five years, traveling has been such a massive part of my personal brand and my personal identity and it’s been a lot of how I’ve shaped a lot of my decisions. A lot of the choices I made around where I studied [00:03:00] and then also sort of the career path that I chose. And so for the world to come to a halt and for travel to not be possible it was certainly a massive adjustment for me to then try and figure out what on earth am I going to do with all of my time? Because I didn’t spend a lot of it at home before. So yeah, there was definitely a moment of sort of personal identity crisis where I realized that I shaped so much of who I was around the travels I did.
And it was also pretty much all that I wrote about on my blog. And that was where I poured my energy. There was definitely a low moment or two, and then try to reframe the opportunities that I did have whilst international travel wasn’t possible. I’m based in Scotland. I’m based in Edinburgh and I’ve spent a lot of time discovering my own back garden. So Edinburgh has some stunning scenery in the Pentland Hills, and in the sort of surrounding areas, which I find great joy and passion in exploring. And even the north of Scotland traveling up there just somewhere, I probably would never have gone if a plane had been an option, if I’m honest. So it definitely took a bit of adjustment for me to realize that there was more to life than hopping on a plane every weekend. But I actually poured a lot of my energy recently into DIY and we’re now converting a van into a camper van. So that has been a massive new challenge. So it’s just been about realizing that there’s always challenges and always new opportunities and adventures. They just look very different.
[00:04:19] Sue: Well, I can imagine in times to come, there’ll be a whole bunch of other conversations to have around where that campervan takes you, but that’s for another time, another day. So thinking of that concept of journey, I’m curious to dig a little bit deeper into your personal journey and what your aspirations were when you were a youngster and how has your career evolved? Because my sense is that really you have created a career around what is important to you.
[00:04:44] Jenna: When I was a child, I really wanted to be a radio DJ. So in many ways my dreams are coming true today. This is my very first podcast, but moving on from my early, early days, when I left school, I did really well in school. I’ve got really great grades. And so the options that were presented to me from the sort of adults or teachers in my life at that time were kind of law or medicine. And I’m being incredibly squeamish and terrible at science, the obvious options seem to be law. And so I sort of dove into doing a law degree without really much research into what was involved in that or whether it was actually really the right choice for me. I did law for four years. My choice of where to study was heavily influenced by whether or not I could study abroad. So I think from an area of the age, the ability to travel really trumped anything else. And I did study abroad in my third year in Holland. So that was definitely the peak of my studies I pretty much should confirm to myself by year two of my law degree, that it was not the space for me. It was not the environment that I wanted to be in or the career that I wanted to have.
And so once I left university, I took a bit of time out to surprise, surprise… Go traveling. I think it speaks for itself. I didn’t actually attend my graduation because I chose to spend the summer in America instead. So I definitely chose sort of passion over what I felt was expected of me by society at that time, [00:06:00] after I graduated and spent that summer in America and then went to Vietnam and spent six months in Vietnam, teaching English, do you think is quite a classic sort of gap year style thing.
Once I returned to Edinburgh. That was where I sort of thought, okay, now what am I doing? Cause a lot of the friends I had studied with were deep into their law careers and getting jobs. So I thought, okay, I need a job. So I did a lot of temp work, just admin, be very short-term work around Edinburgh kind of fell into a six week contract, a travel company. So it was an admin job, but at least it had that link to travel. So I thought, okay, I can do it. For six weeks. And that role just kind of evolved and evolved into eventually becoming a permanent role. And I became a permanent member of the team in that organization. The role was pretty far removed from my law degree, but it was at least in the sector that I had an interest in.
And it was whilst I was there that I also was. In my personal life at the same time, I guess, alongside that was coming to terms with myself a little bit more starting to discover my own identity and including the fact that I was a member of the LGBT community. And so those two parts of my journey happened all very much at the same time. And as I became more and more comfortable in that organization, that was when I started to sort of test the waters with close friends and colleagues about sort of sharing that part of my personal identity as well. And really the career that I’m in now kind of accidentally stemmed from there.
[00:07:24] Sue: It seems to me that journeying and travel and discovering new things is actually what you’re putting into practice in your work life, as well as your personal life. Would you agree?
[00:07:36] Jenna: Yeah, for sure. I think I’m always open to new things, new experiences, new adventures, and discovering new bits about myself. I think travel brings so much opportunity to discover your identity, whatever that looks like, whether it’s being LGBT or just other parts of your personality or hobbies. I also identify as an introvert and I think that that’s an interesting combination to be someone passionate about solo travel, but also very introverted. Yeah. I think travel just gives that scope for discovery in the very literal sense of seeing new places around the world, but also self discovery of learning more about yourself as well.
[00:08:11] Sue: One of the words, you just slipped into the conversation there. Jenna was around solo travel. Yes. Because I’m imagining people might have assumed that you’re traveling with others. For many people that can be quite daunting. It could be quite a risk. How have you had the courage and the confidence to do that?
[00:08:27] Jenna: I think I’ve always been a very independent person and I was raised to be confident. I also was raised with a brother, so I learned to stand my ground early on. And so I think that for me, I’ve just always had that mentality that you don’t need someone else to be able to do something. You can do that for yourself. And that’s really where my solo travel journeys began. I wasn’t going to wait around at home for someone else to come with me before I got to see the world, I was going to do it and see who I met along the way and see what happened along the way. So I guess my first big solo[00:09:00] travel adventure would have been my year abroad, where there was a stability and structure around it.
Cause you know, you’re going to another university. There was a framework in place for support. And then as I grew more confident in my traveling, I started to do it really off my own back and going completely solo, booking my own flights, choosing where I was going to go. And I just found that that was such a freeing experience to have complete control and autonomy over where I went, what I did when I ate, where I chose to visit the whole thing.
It was such a freeing experience and so empowering as well. So that’s actually where my travel blog came from originally. It was not intended to be about speaking about LGBT travel. It was really, I started the blog to encourage other women specifically because I think those that solo female traveler niche of encouraging other women to take control of their own decisions and to have the courage to go out and adventure the world themselves. And that’s really why I started to share the travel that I was doing online.
[00:09:54] Sue: And within that blog and from your own experiences, what have been some of the hardest things you’ve faced and how have you overcome them.
[00:10:02] Jenna: I would say my most challenging adventure by far was Vietnam. My journey to Vietnam for six months. It certainly brought many a challenge. Vietnam is an absolutely gorgeous country, wonderful people, wonderful culture. I had an incredible time, but also a very challenging time. I was there on the other side of the world, very isolated in a country that I couldn’t speak the language. I didn’t have many friends.
And with the teaching schedule that I was on, it was far more constricted than just being there as traveling. Cause not only was I traveling and exploring, but I was also trying to work. And so there’s a whole new set of things to navigate when you try to work abroad. And you’re not just on holiday sitting by the beach. So for all the wonderful opportunities that Vietnam has to offer, it was definitely a challenging place to try and work and find accommodation. Navigating the language barriers and very much cultural differences with what I was used to at home that taught me a lot about myself, that I had the resilience to not quit because there was definitely days when I was laying in a very, very cold one bedroom flat that I definitely wanted to be home eating my super noodles I’d made out of the kettle because I didn’t have a kitchen. There was a lot going on there and they didn’t quit. And I think coming out of the back of that, I always think to myself, if I stuck it out in Vietnam I can get through anything. And that’s something that stayed with me.
[00:11:22] Sue: So you faced the challenges on those travels. What have been some of the wonderful places that you’ve visited? What are the highlights that stay in your head?
[00:11:31] Jenna: So every word definitely has its purpose. It’s hard to pick out as a Scottish girl. I love anywhere that has sunshine which is basically anywhere except Scotland. So I will say that that’s always great for me. Thailand sticks out. It’s not somewhere that traveled solo its somewhere I traveled with my partner, but as I’ve come into my LGBT identity and starch to speak about that more, it’s become really important to me as well, to highlight and celebrate the countries that are very inclusive and that are super welcoming to LGBT travelers. So [00:12:00] Thailand is always top of my list when I’m celebrating the countries that I’ve had really positive experience and we felt completely welcomed. We felt incredibly safe. It’s such a gorgeous country. And we also learned to scuba dive. So being able to see not only the land of Thailand, but the under the sea of Thailand as well was such a fantastic experience. And I think the cherry on the cake with Thailand is that we went in January of 2020 on a very spontaneous, last minute trip.
And I think someone was looking down on us to encourage us to book a very spontaneous trip in January. The world’s shut down very soon after and we always look back to say, we’re so grateful we just took that random trip. There was no special occasion and there was no real reason to go, but we just thought why not? And I think that that is a lesson I learned from COVID as well to take the opportunities when they present themselves, because you don’t know when they’re not going to be available again. So I will be forever grateful for Thailand.
[00:12:55] Sue: The conversation continues in a few seconds after this. If you’re in a busy person and probably always feeling behind, then you may be wondering how you can get more done in less time. One solution is working with a virtual assistant. They can help with social media, graphic design, customer service, copywriting, digital marketing, and many more tasks. IWorker is a social enterprise that connects you to tell them, take remote workers from countries in crisis. Most of our team come from Venezuela a country facing dire economic circumstances by hiring from iWorker like we do, you’ll get back some time for yourself and help to change a life. Find out more by listening to episode 20, where I spoke to co founder John Miles, or you can look at their website, iWorker.co to find out more, now back to the podcast.
Well, that sounds like very wise advice to yourself and just picking up on what you were mentioning there about becoming more comfortable with your identity and being happier to talk about your experiences and who you are as part of the LGBT community. I kind of want to turn our attention then to how you integrated that into the workplace. And as far as I understand, have created your own job for yourself.
[00:14:20] Jenna: Yes. I have kind of accidentally made a career for myself in this space. So yeah, when I started in that initial role was sort of an admin assistant. I had the opportunity randomly to speak to the CEO of the company at the time about their inclusion policies and a lot of the conversations. It was a sort of round table discussion and it was pretty much all focused on gender and women in the workplace. And I kind of sheepishly put my hand up because I was very, very new to their office and said, oh, I’m actually here to speak about LGBT inclusion not gender inclusion. And I was wondering why there’s nothing here about that and why there’s no work on that.
And he kind of thought about it and sort of admitted that it wasn’t, that [00:15:00] they weren’t passionate about it. It just was that they’d never thought about it before. So if I want you to see that in the workplace, I should go ahead and create it. And so with absolutely no prior experience or knowledge on how I could possibly create an LGBT inclusive workplace, I set to work . I set up the organization’s first LGBT network for staff, because that was really what I was looking for. I was looking for that sense of community and that sense of belonging. And so it wasn’t there. So I created it over the coming years. I became not just the person to speak to about LGBT inclusion, but about diversity, equity and inclusion across the board.
And very quickly in the background was trying to upskill myself. Cause I was getting questions from quite senior members of the organization about things I had no knowledge of at all. So it was very quickly going away finding the answers and then coming back and over the course of a couple of years, sort of that grew from just a couple of emails here and there to a constant influx of requests for guidance and consultation on different aspects of diversity, equity and inclusion.
To the point where it did become a full-time role in itself. And that’s kind of, what’s led me to where I am today, where I am not only leading, but creating and then leading the implementation of the diversity strategy for the organization. So yeah, it was an accident, but a very happy accident because it’s something I care so passionately about. And it’s not a role that I ever could have imagined myself in whilst sitting quite unhappily doing that law degree years ago.
[00:16:25] Sue: So you created the ideal job for yourself through really following your interest and being prepared to back yourself in a way I’m going and learning more about diversity, equity and inclusion to help implement that in the workplace. I’m wondering, were there any things from your law degree and the things you learned during that experience that you were able to draw upon that have helped you to be effective in the workplace today?
[00:16:50] Jenna: Yeah, I think, although I sort of joke about not loving the topic and there not being a career path I wanted to follow. There was definitely a number of skills that have been useful to me. I think thinking analytically, being able to structure an argument, being able to structure a proposition, particularly at the point where creating a job spec for myself, and then presenting that back to the organization, that really requires quite a lot of courage in your convictions and courage in yourself. And presenting your side of a perspective and sticking by that. So for sure that comes in very handy and I probably use it more than I realize. And I think also the analytical piece, so much of what we do is data driven and it’s founded in fact. There’s a lot of storytelling. There’s a lot of anecdote, but at the end of the day, it sort of does come down to facts and being able to propose those in sort of a structured manner. So that definitely comes in handy from time to time.
[00:17:41] Sue: And how do you measure your success of your achievements within that organization today?
[00:17:46] Jenna: A very interesting question. I think it’s the million dollar question. If anyone’s listening and knows exactly how to measure success in DEI, I would love to hear it. I think it’s the one that everyone is trying to tackle. It’s so challenging to measure something that’s so [00:18:00] holistic, something like an inclusive culture or the feeling of belonging to measure that down to like one very specific statistic or data point. And so for me, it’s kind of looking across the board a number of different data points and sort of slow progress over time, rather than having sort of a tick box. Yeah. For me, diversity, equity and inclusion. It’s a journey going back that journey and that analogy again, but it is an ongoing journey. It’s ongoing progress. It’s not something that has an end goal. I guess the end goal would be to do myself.out of a job. So I guess ultimate success would be the role that I’m in is no longer required.
But whilst we’re sort of on that journey, it’s just about constantly adapting, changing to new language. Changing to new legal guidance that comes out. Policies, changing behavior, and then also adapting to the outside environment as well. So I don’t think there’s one marker of success, but more just reviewing as a, as a whole and the experience that people within the organization are having and whether that’s positive and they feel included or not.
[00:19:03] Sue: I guess from what you’re saying is you’re pointing to the difficulties and the challenges that any organization has and measuring success and impact within the organization. I’m wondering also about you personally, you’ve created a job out of nothing. Be fair to say. For you like many other people can find it challenging to measure the impact and the effectiveness within the organization. And yet each of us has to keep motivated on a daily basis. So I’m wondering if you ever look back and reflect and think about what your own personal measures.
[00:19:35] Jenna: Yeah, I think I don’t do that enough, but it’s definitely something that we should all do a lot more of for me, a massive point of reflection this year was pride month. So pride month, every year falls in June for most countries. And it always, for me is quite a milestone of looking back on the previous years and where I was for pride month, a year before. So whilst diversity, equity and inclusion across the board is a lot more than just LGBT inclusion with my blog and with my niche and my personal experiences, pride has always been kind of a marker of, oh wow. Here’s where I was one year ago at pride or five years ago at pride. And so if I think back to five or six years ago, I attended Edinburgh pride by myself. I got a bus into town and I just went and I stood on the sidelines and I just watched, because I was like, this is very new to me. I don’t know what this is going to be like. Fast forward a year. I was there with three other colleagues from the organization cause I’ve roped three people into coming along with me and volunteering on behalf of a charity. The year after that we were there as an organization of maybe 20 or so people. The year after that staff from four or five offices globally attending their local prides on behalf of the organization. Then last year I actually hosted a pride webinar because you know, the world’s shut down. And so that in-person attendance wasn’t possible, but we reached over 300 people around the world, discussing the intersection of LGBT travel, a and certainly the LGBT identity. And so pride for me is always that mark. [00:21:00] Oh, where was I a year ago? Two years ago, three years ago. And where am I? Now. And I think that I should probably do better at marking that more than once a year, but for me, probably just always that moment of reflection of how far I’ve come and how confident I am now in speaking about it. Cause this year it was the first time I spoke out to other organizations and educated to other organizations on how to be inclusive and the importance of LGBT inclusion. So kind of moved from being the learner into educating others as well. So that was a big step.
[00:21:28] Sue: Well, that’s just a lovely example of the journey that you’ve made for yourself. And one way of measuring success and impact that you’ve had in reflecting back. For any of our listeners that perhaps want to create a more inclusive and diverse workplace or community, whatever way they’re engaging with others, but they perhaps like you at the outset are a little bit nervous. They don’t quite know where to start, even just thinking about what language to use let’s alone anything else. What would be some of the things that you’ve learned along the way that would maybe be helpful for them to take that first step?
[00:22:00] Jenna: Yeah, I think it’s not being afraid to fail because it’s not something you’re always going to get correct. And understanding that everybody is human. So we’re not all perfect. Sometimes we’re going to slip up. Sometimes we’re going to use the wrong language, but for me, it always intent over anything else. So you can always tell when someone is approaching something with the right intention. Even if you use the wrong language or you slip up and say a word that’s perhaps not as inclusive as it could be, the intention always shines through. And so just trying to be as inclusive as possible is always the best place to start. And also just self-education, there’s a lot of pressure on Minority groups, whether it’s in the LGBT space or ethnicity or disability to educate everybody on that experience. And so if you want to be an ally, it’s taking that time to educate yourself, listen to podcasts, or watch Ted talks or read books or watch films whatever’s or format you prefer to be educated. Taking the time to self-educate takes the pressure off those minority communities are already under a lot of pressure to do that, educating themselves, or seek out people who are actively trying to educate. So I’m happy to educate. I’ve put myself out there. I think that’s very different to asking a colleague who’s maybe not offered up the information about themselves to take on the onus of educating you. So yeah, I would say don’t be afraid to fail. Intent first and self-educate and seek out those resources for you.
[00:23:24] Sue: Well, I think so far, you given us a lovely example of those three words that we started with authentic queer, and unstoppable and how you’ve described your experience to date Jenna. And I’m delighted that you’re also really offering to educate any of our listeners who want to learn more. One of the things I’ll put to you and not for necessarily answering now, and I’ll be interested in, if you will be willing to have a conversation with us offline about this is one of the things we tried to do on the podcast is to be inclusive. And we always seek to have diverse guests we interviewing and having conversations with. So maybe you can cast your eye over to our strategy and see if we can learn something from you as well.
[00:23:59] Jenna: Yeah, absolutely. [00:24:00] It’s actually one that I realized that you and I are on camera right now, so we can see it for ourselves, but something I should have audibly said at the start as well. And I think one thing that would be great for a podcast is to share your pronouns at the beginning of when you’re speaking, because particularly for the LGBT community, if you share your pronouns at the beginning, it opens up a safe space for anyone else to share their pronouns.
And so it’s a super simple thing to do if you’re comfortable doing it, to share your pronouns. So my pronouns are she and her. And that just creates that space for anyone that you might be speaking to who might have pronouns that are not obvious, or that you might not have assumed to be able to share those back with you. And so that’s definitely a practice I always try and stick to, and I think I’ve slipped up today cause they’re on our screen so we can see them, but the rest of the listeners can’t see them. So that’s definitely one that I would always encourage people to try and practice.
[00:24:45] Sue: Well, that’s brilliant. We’re learning something already and can include that in the future with our recordings. Thank you for that one, Jenna. So if people want to find out more about the things that you’ve learned and to learn more about you and your travels and your work, how might you do that on social?
[00:24:59] Jenna: So I’m very active on social media, along with my blog on Instagram, mainly at the Jenna Way. So that was a name I was, you know, I guess that’s a little bit of my journey, the Jenna Way. And that’s where I am on Instagram. I speak a lot about being LGBT on my travels over there, and you get a little bit of insight into our, our van building as well as a bonus. And then on LinkedIn I share more around the professional site of inclusion in the workplace and I’m Jenna Howieson on LinkedIn. And then my blog is also the Jenna way.com and that’s kind of a combination of my travel LGBT inclusion, and sort of wider diversity equity and inclusion topics as well. So those are my three main things. I’m pretty much the Jenna way everywhere.
[00:25:38] Sue: And if there was one piece of advice that you would want to give yourself, if you look back at the 16 year old. And was to give her some advice. What would you say to her?
[00:25:47] Jenna: I think I would definitely tell her not to worry about what other people think. I definitely wasn’t someone that was popular in high school. I didn’t really fit in, but I think that by staying true to myself, staying independent. Staying authentic. So that word again, it’s led me to where I am today. And if I had spent more energy trying to fit in, I definitely wouldn’t have followed the journey that I did and taken so many solo adventures and being ready to speak up for myself. So stay true to yourself and just follow what you’re passionate about. And don’t worry too much about what other people are thinking. Cause that will work out in the end.
[00:26:21] Sue: Well, that’s a wonderful way to end their conversation today. Jenna, you’ve given us a lot to think about, you’ve given us some very practical tips and some wonderful stories to illustrate your journey. So thank you so much for taking the time to have a conversation with us today.
[00:26:34] Jenna: Thank you so much. It was great to chat to you.
[00:26:37] Sue: So I hope you were inspired and educated by Jenna’s messages. It made me think about how we can be more inclusive on the podcast. You’ll find transcriptions of this and all the other episodes in the website, access to inspiration.org. Why not look us up on social media?
We are on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. And before I go, remember to take our impact survey [00:27:00] or leave us a voice note about the impact that this podcast has had on you. You’ll find details on the show notes and the website. Next time I’ll be speaking to Ronald Paredes an artist and graphic designer from Caracas whose aim is to help others rediscover their creativity. I hope you will join us then.
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Sound Editor: Matias de Ezcurra (he/him)
Producer: Sue Stockdale (she/her)