Sue Stockdale talks to Thomas Andrén, about the process he used to identify his dream job by asking himself over 900 questions to discover the answer. This process took several months and connected Thomas to his mind as well as his body, where he noted down any physical reactions he got when answering the questions. The results were fascinating.
Thomas is a Certified Swedish Classic Massage Therapist who grew up in Värmdö, east of Stockholm in Sweden, and worked as a computer technician in the early 2000s. After a decade in this sector, he had enough and decided to change his career using a structured method of problem-solving. After months of reflection, Thomas changed career and went on to study to become a massage therapist in 2010. He then started working on cruise ships in Scandinavia, and most recently for LivNordic and Viking cruises.
We’ve produced over 50 episodes to date, and would like your feedback about the impact that our podcasts have had on you:
“Being a massage therapist gives you a longer opportunity to actually have a conversation with someone”.
“I realized now in later years that I actually allowed life to take me wherever”.
“So I started writing down questions to myself. I bought a notebook and I started just randomly writing down questions to myself”.
‘I took this notebook with all the questions and in rapid succession started answering these questions. And I would take note of what happens if I got any physical reactions when I was answering these questions’.
“There also a handful of questions that I always answered yes to. One of them being, would you like to have the entire world as your playground?”
“It’s also important to be able to zoom out on yourself to see yourself from different angles, different perspectives to realize that you do have a positive way of thinking, and you do have a negative way of thinking and you do have a critical way of thinking”.
‘I became my own Rubik cube with thoughts and insights’.
‘I know a lot about computers. I could take a deep dive into the most advanced machine there is – the human body’.
“Don’t be afraid to step out of the way. It will make you feel uncomfortable that, but feeling uncomfortable is a very important step of evolving and pushing through to whatever adventure that awaits you”.
Thomas Andren Transcription
[00:00:00] Sue: hi there. I’m Sue Stockdale, your host for the Access to Inspiration podcast. Our aim is to provide you with inspiration through conversation in the 50 episodes to date, I’ve spoken to many interesting people, ranging from a sailor on a sport scientist, to a designer and a doctor. All of their amazing stories have the power to strengths and shape and challenge our view of the world. We hope each episode ignites new possibilities within you. makes you think And do something differently as a result. And as a social mission, we want to discover the impact of all of these episodes I’ve had on. you So, whether this is your first or your 51st episode, we’d love to get your insights about the impact that it’s had theres a short 3 minute survey, which you can get a link to in our show notes.
And we’d love if you would take a moment to complete that, or you can leave us a voice note. If you’d prefer to just record a quick bit of audio telling us your story and the impact the podcasts hadon you.. Now, I know that many of you like to find out how we discovered our guests, for each episode and from experience. I know that the most amazing stories can be found in the most odd places. If you just ask a few questions and engage in conversation with another human being. Well, today is no exception there. I was getting a massage. And began a conversation with a massage therapist. Little did I know what I was to discover when I asked him the question, how did you become a massage therapist? And a lot of interesting information was revealed. So I went back, later to record this episode with him, now there may be a little bit of background noise, but I hope that that doesn’t detract from what Thomas Andren has to say. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:57] Thomas: Thank you.
[00:01:58] Sue: So I’ve come across you as a massage therapist, and I’m really curious to know what is it you like about being a massage therapist?
[00:02:05] Thomas: Oh, there’s a lot of things, actually. First of all, you get to meet a lot of people from all over the world, especially when working on cruise ships like this, it gives you a very colorful experience, meeting people from all over the world. That particular thing, being a massage therapist gives you a longer opportunity to actually have a conversation with someone and you are bypassing a lot of social barriers, very fast since you’re actually having someone on the table, massage table, and you’re doing hands on treatment, which is a little bit intruding, maybe for some people, but you are passing by a lot of social barriers. So people tend to open up, you get this very close, fast relationship with the person you have on the table. So conversations go from [00:03:00] anywhere to everywhere very quickly, which is amazing because it does colour your mind with a lot of perspective on things.
[00:03:09] Sue: So not only are you helping those that you’re treating, they’re helping you in a way they’re giving you information?
[00:03:15] Thomas: Absolutely. Absolutely. Sometimes you can have a massage for 50 minutes and your mind is completely blown when you exit the room because you taken part of someone else’s life experience in such a way that you wouldn’t get anywhere else like you don’t bump into someone on the street and have a 15 minute conversation. It’s just magic in that sense.
[00:03:38] Sue: Sounds like it’s really impactful for you really enjoy it. Yeah. And I know that your journey to get to become a massage therapist is a really interesting one. And maybe if I can just almost take you back to when you were a young child, I understand you were brought up in Sweden.
[00:03:53] Thomas: That’s very true.
[00:03:54] Sue: Tell me a bit, what was that like? What was it like being a child in Sweden?
[00:03:58] Thomas: I think it’s very balanced. You don’t have a lot of risks actually, except the risks you create yourself. We don’t have any natural disasters. We don’t have tectonic plates or volcanoes or stuff like this? No hurricane seasons, we don’t have a lot of dangerous animals. So you can kind of remove all that proper, dangerous stuff out of the equation. Yes. Sweden, Sweden. its a good place to grow up.
[00:04:28] Sue: And when you were young, was massage therapy, something that you had heard about or seen? What were you thinking as a young Thomas? What did you want to be when you grew up?
[00:04:37] Thomas: The idea I realized now in later years that I actually allow life to take me wherever I had no idea what massage therapy was pretty much up until I was in the twenties. So there was no idea whatsoever to become a massage therapist.
[00:04:54] Sue: And when you were then at school and then people often ask or ask a person to turn their attention to what the career will be, what were you either encouraged to do? Or what took you interest more into electronics and technology?
[00:05:07] Thomas: My big brother, who’s 12 years older than me. He also picked up the interest for computers. Yeah. With him guiding the way the interest just really grew bigger and bigger. So when I finished compulsory school and you apply for upper secondary school, there was this completely brand new school. And it gymnasium as they call it where all the students would get laptops.
And you would start introducing computers for real in young people’s lives. To develop their sense of interest for it. But at that time, I had already assembled and built computers for a couple of years with my big brother. So I was already good at it. So it was through a summer job as a computer technician at a store in the middle of Stockholm continued working in the store after the summer holiday. So I actually skipped out on upper secondary [00:06:00] school. I applied for the school and I got in, but I did a white little lie. So I made sure that I could stay on the job instead. I’d also did tell my employer that I didn’t receive any spots so I would kind of play a little risky game over there to see if they would offer me a employment or not. Luckily they did. So by the end of that, They did offer me employment instead. So obviously I said yes to that and dropped out of school and continued working with computers
[00:06:31] Sue: and therefore one is imagining you’re on a certain career track with computers and technology. How did you get from there into becoming a massage therapist?
[00:06:41] Thomas: Oh, that’s a big leap. What? I worked with computers for 10 years. About at the age of 23, my interest for computers kind of died out a little bit, mainly because there was a bad leader at that current company I was working for kind of dissipated my flame and then the interest is died out. I felt that there was not too much more to explore. Well, in the IT world it is so big. You will never learn everything because there are so many different ways to specialize. But I had enough with working with machines and computers. I wanted more interaction. So. I quit that job. So I took the opportunity to go back and start at the upper secondary school that I dropped out of.
So now going back 10 years later with a different perspective on life, actually going back to studying was a great thing because with different perspective and insights about life studying became way more interesting than it was before. Like being a teenager fully with hormones and all kinds of stuff in your mind, you’re easily distracted by a lot of things.
So coming back with a little bit more edge, actually made a huge impact. You would realize that studying is for you and no one else. And if you’re interested in it’s your way to go and what were you studying? Since I dropped out of the gymnasium, I didn’t do any of those subjects. So I came to line them up all of them, and then just shoot my way through them. One by one. Classical subjects, Swedish as a language, we have a system where we, grade the courses A and B were able to be the basic version and be able, would be more advanced. So I shoot my way through Swedish, English, biology and nature science, mathematics, religion, social studies. All these subjects, the basic versions and the advanced versions of them. I mean, two years instead of three. And that gave me a lot of perspectives and insights about things
[00:08:45] Sue: And did massage therapy come out there because I know that you use a kind of principle of logic and questions at some stage to make your decision as to what came next?
[00:08:55] Thomas: Of these studies. I realized that, okay, I need to start [00:09:00] focusing on something that I will do for the next 10, 15 years, because now when I have upgraded my backpack with knowledge, there is a lot of things to. So I started thinking about this and then with having my old computer technician trial and error way of thinking for troubleshooting and repairing computers, I did the same way I did when troubleshooting computers, I would line up all my schoolbooks on a big table. And I picked one of the books up and I tried to remember as much as I could without opening the book and by doing so I realized that there were certain books, I would remember way more information from than others.
So. Sorting all these books out. I ended up with nature science and biology and subjects like this. I would remember whole chapters. I would remember quotes and everything from these, not so much from a hundred books. So that made me really, I, something that I had some kind of subconscious interest in these subjects, there must be something inside of me that has an interest for things like this. So I thought, okay, if I am into nature science, what professions are there? Because I also realized that preferably you should do something that you enjoy and that comes easy to you. For me and mathematics, for example, it’s not a very good combination
[00:10:31] Sue: that wasn’t in the list then?
[00:10:32] Thomas: Yeah, I would have to, I find myself every day to keep that even on a normal level. So that clearly wasn’t an option. So looking back at nature science and biology and things like this, I was trying to find out what kind of professions you would have with this as a main guideline. So I stumbled over Anatomy and I thought, okay, let’s get one or two books out of this and start reading it and see if I remember this as well. Or if it does make any sense to me when I read it. So I did and pretty much everything was very easy for me. When I started reading it, I remembered names of muscles and anatomy and I remembered physiology quite easiest.
And I thought, okay. Hmm, interesting. So this should be something I should look into. Maybe a profession within this sector of subjects would be something since clearly it comes easy for me. So having identified the subject, I knew that this would be something I would have to do for the next 10, 15 years or something.
So I started writing down questions to myself. I bought an old book and I started just randomly. Typed down questions to myself, easy questions where you would answer yes or no a little bit every day, sometimes in the mornings when waking up and having dreams, I would make questions out of those dreams and just write it [00:12:00] down or mainly in the evenings when I’ve had a whole day experiences. I would note down questions about the days completely random until I fill the entire notebook, which was maybe two, two and a half, three months or something like this. That’s quite a bit at work. That’s quite a bit of work. Like you make it into a daily routine or something and you just, okay, I’ll go write down some questions before I go to bed.
[00:12:28] Sue: And did you know what was going to happen when you were going through this process of writing down the questions? Did you have a process in your mind as to what was going to happen next with those questions or did that materialize.
[00:12:41] Thomas: It was a little bit like a roller coaster at many times. I thought, why am I even doing this? Like, why am I writing all these questions? Am I ever going to answer them or not? Or is this just a way for me to ventilate down my mind on a paper? So back and forth between thoughts like this or no one really attempted, oh, that was a good question. I need to write these ones down because they are so weird. So it was a journey itself. Coming up with questions. There was a lot of questions that I had already written down, but it was a fun project to kind of free your mind and come up with questions that you would have.
[00:13:19] Sue: The conversation continues in a few seconds after this, if you in a busy person and probably always feeling behind, then you may be wondering how you can get more done in less time. One solution is working with a virtual assistant. They can help with social media, graphic design, customer service, copywriting, digital marketing, and many more tasks. iWorker is a social enterprise that connects you to talented remote workers from countries in crisis. Most of their team come from Venezuela country facing dire economic circumstances by hiring from iWorker like we do, you’ll get back some time for yourself. and help to change a life, find it more by listening to episode 20, where I spoke to founder John Miles, or you can look at their website. www.IWorker.co to find out more, now back to the podcast. Can you remember any of those questions that stood out for you?
[00:14:25] Thomas: Yes. Quite a lot of them actually. So when this notebook was done, I put it away for a couple of weeks to kind of clear my mind away from it and get away from the routine of writing down. So I went on and on about with whatever I was doing, finishing the last couple of months in school and working on weekends, doing my, whatever I did to maintain a normal life in Sweden.
So then after a couple of weeks, yeah. Took this notebook with all the questions in rapid [00:15:00]succession started answering these questions. And I would take notice of what happens if I got any physical reactions when I was answering these questions. Was it a quick, yes. Quick no? Every time. I said no. Was it any feeling of disgust or did my body respond in a very physical way when answering yes or no?
Yes. There was a lot of physical reactions, a lot of laughter, a lot of deep emotional impacts, daydreaming like pictures, vivid sequences of pictures coming up in your mind, answering these questions for all kinds of things. So I thought, okay, this is actually very interesting. I’m interviewing myself in a very logical way. So how do I combine this with my previous insight that I should be working with something that has to do with nature science subjects? So along the way, answering these questions, the two different bubbles kind of merged. And I started looking for questions more that had to do with nature science. And the more I observed this, I got positive reactions inside of my body.
If I would ask you, would you like a suitcase of $50 million? How would you even respond to a questions like that? Is someone ever going to ask you that question, but let’s pretend someone does. And how would you actually react? If someone just walked straight up to you and say, would you like $50 million?
How do you react? What happens inside of you? There are so many things going on in a couple of seconds. Before your critical mind comes in and pushes all these reactions down like that. That’s never going to happen. Are you insane? Why would someone ask you these questions? So if you just zoom them out on yourself and you observe where are are. Takes you in a couple of seconds. First, there was a big rise of positive feelings coming up like, oh, I will do this. I will do that. All my problems would be solved. And then directly after comes this negative feeling of you, like that’s never going to happen. Are you ridiculous? Why would you think something like that then?
What are you going to do with all that money? Anyway, all these questions, they really started affecting me in both positive ways and negative ways. Physical reactions, positive reactions and negative reactions. So I started filtering out the positive reactions. Every question I answered yes. To some of them in an instant like, yes, yes. This is definitely something I want to do or, oh, maybe, maybe I’ll. Yeah. I need to read this question one more time. Maybe I’ll say yes, next time. We’ll see. So I started filtering the notebook with questions and I would take a new notebook and. Questions down all the questions I said yes to, or what’s a little bit, maybe still wrote them down in a new notebook.
And through that process, I filtered out all the questions I would [00:18:00] say yes to, or how about postitive feeling insights that took a couple of months and another note book and another notebook filled during all of this. So by the end, maybe three, four months doing this process. Back to your question was if I would remember any of these questions, there was a handful of questions that I always answered yes. To. And one of them being, would you like to have the entire world as your playground? Yes. Why not? Why wouldn’t you want to see the rest of this world? Why would you want to be stuck in Sweden for the rest of your life? So that was a, definitely a question that I, every time I wrote that question down, I already wrote yes, pretty much before I, it was like a big sign in my head, like, yes, yes, yes.
So this is something I definitely want to, um, another question was, would you like to be the tool for your trade? Yeah, why not? Why wouldn’t I be the tool for my trade? I should use my hands to be able to perform a profession, which I could use anywhere in the world. Now that I would be traveling the entire world with my previous question, it would make it easier to explore and easier to go everywhere if I was the tool, not bringing a lot of equipment with me. So. Okay. I need to be able to travel lightly, which was another question. But would you like to travel with a lot of bags? Which no. Would you like to travel with lights, bags or travel light? Yes, of course. It makes things easier. And you’re removing the chance of your luggage getting destroyed or your equipment to be lost or things.
So with this, I kind of formed an idea that, okay, maybe I should be some kind of a therapist. I would be the tools. I would use my hands to do my profession. I would be able to do it anywhere. I wouldn’t need an office. I wouldn’t need lab equipment. I wouldn’t need fancy equipment or anything. That would be a hassle to bring it.
So tightening the rope around my own neck with these positive yes questions and the nature science as a cohort, I started looking at different professions as a therapist, and I stumbled over massage therapy.
[00:20:21] Sue: It strikes me Thomas, that one of the things that it sounds like you were doing really well was not listening perhaps to that critic voice, because many people have those dreams and ideas about what they would like to do and then comes in there. Yes. And they don’t pursue them because the critic gets in the way. How did you allow your critique to not overwhelm your thinking and your belief in what was possible?
[00:20:48] Thomas: That is an excellent observation from your side, talking about it like this, not what actually makes me realize that chasing down and hunting these positive reactions in your body while answering the [00:21:00] questions. Yes or no. Clearly you want to feel positive, even though it’s very healthy to feel negative and. In many ways, that’s another spectrum of buttons to gain insights about yourself. So it’s healthy to have both, but I think during that time, answering all these questions, I really wanted to find something that would make me feel positive.
I wanted to find a profession or something that would stimulate me for the next 10, 15 years in a positive way. On the contrary to mathematics. Whenever I get confronted with a mathematic problem. I just, but no, thanks. So I guess in one way, chasing those positive reactions when answering the questions overtook the role, and it’s also important to be able to zoom out on yourself, to see yourself from different angles. Different perspectives to realize that you do have a positive way of thinking, and you do have a negative way of thinking and you do have a critical way of thinking. And how do you sort that out, if you can put your finger on whichever it is and realize that this is actually a very negative way of thinking, you put it more into a objective way of thinking about it.
And then having those insights and the ability to identify your own thoughts and kind of categorize them as positive or negative, you can then start attacking them with further questions. Like, why am I thinking like this? How am I thinking like this? And like one of those Rubik cubes twist and turn find solution. If you can put your way of thinking into an object and then you can take that object and twist and turn it with different ways of thinking. Like, okay, let’s try to think positively about this negative thought that I used. Am I able to convert it or am I able to twist and turn it into something positive instead of thinking only negative about it?
I became my own Rubik cube with thoughts and insights. So this obviously became a little bit messy. So I started drawing a lot of mind maps on paper. So whenever I had a very positive thought or when I had a very negative thought, I would mind map it on, on a paper, I would draw it in the middle of the paper and I would draw different ways to approach that thought around it. And I would just, first of all, to get it out on a paper. So you don’t have it circulating in your mind. Let’s say you have a negative thought and you turn it into an object in your mind and you start twisting and turning. Cube and try to approach it in different ways. Your mind is very easily distracted by all your senses. So if you’re not sitting down and really focusing on this, it’s going to [00:24:00] be hard for you to keep that mental picture, trying to solve this puzzle in your mind completely. So it’s easier to draw it out on paper so you can see it. To get input from one of your senses. Maybe you can touch the paper as well with your hand to get a feel of what it is. Can I touch this thought? How do I feel when I touch this cube that I’ve just put on paper now that I can see it. If you post the cube as a question, why, why don’t try to read it out loud. So I can hear the question. I can hear myself saying it. So now we’re all of a sudden engaging on all of our senses to find solutions for it.
[00:24:42] Sue: I’m imagining, as you’re describing this to me, that all of a sudden, the word massage therapist or the picture that appeared on your mind map as the answer, was that how it happened?
[00:24:53] Thomas: Yes. That’s exactly how it happened. So I wrote that. Massage therapist on a big paper. What? I would have lots of space to just deep dive into every category that I drew around it. So obviously I touched the paper. I looked at it, I read it out loud. Many times I could hear the word. To see if that would trigger a positive feeling. Thomas, can you see yourself as a massage therapist? Yes, no. Yes, I actually can. That would be nice. Or why, why would that be nice? Well, I guess it, it has to do with nature science and I would learn a lot about the human body.
I know a lot about computers. Why not deep dive into the most advanced machine? There is the human body. There is no end to what we know about the human body. We still dont know everything. So I was like, okay, yeah, this is actually a really good challenge. The human body would be the most advanced machine I would ever work with. So that’s piqued my interest as well.
[00:25:55] Sue: I think you’re already describing to us a great deal of awareness about the human body and the connection between mind and body senses and mind that you perhaps consciously or unconsciously what even applying in your decision-making process to get to massage therapist has being the output.
[00:26:14] Thomas: Yeah. That’s true.
[00:26:17] Sue: So how did you find a job then being in massage?
[00:26:20] Thomas: Yeah, lucky being born in Sweden and everything where you have Swedish classic massage, you need luck as well. I started looking for different therapists professions and in Sweden, we have a school called Axelsons. Which is the oldest school in Scandinavia for massage therapy. I did some research. I went to their webpage, I read about it and I looked at the course details what you would learn. And I thought, okay. This is definitely something I’m going to have a go at. So it’s a private schools in Sweden. We have a lot of financial sure support from the government. You can get support if you want to study something, but this, [00:27:00] since it was a private school, you don’t have support from the government. So you have to take a loan to be able to start that or financially do it yourself. So coming fresh out of secondary studies school and working extra on weekends, I thought, how do I get this money then? So I asked my mom for help. She took a loan for me and I decided, okay, studies are 750 hours, so I can easily put 750 hours down or focus if this is going to be the next thing I’m going to do for the next 10, 15 years. So I went to apply. They took me in and I started my journey and went through training.
[00:27:39] Sue: And was it as enjoyable as you imagined it would be?
[00:27:43] Thomas: Yes, definitely. I had already started growing a big interest for physiology and since I knew that nature science subjects would be something that I could read ease I enjoyed everything of that training.
[00:27:57] Sue: And then in terms of making the world, your playground, as you describe it, did cruise ships and being a massage therapist on cruise ships entered into your thinking at that stage.
[00:28:09] Thomas: By the end of the massage training, this school had arranged for a lot of companies to have seminars at the school and talk about how it is to work as a massage therapist. So we had companies talking about how it is to have your own clinic. We had companies talking about how it is to be employed by a big massage company and go from company to company. Sweden has a really good deal with this. Actually, if you have a company, you can have a therapist come to your company and give all your employees massage. And it’s a hundred percent deductible from tax for your company by the end of the year. So you can give all your employees free massages, basically, which in the long run is very beneficial for your company. So there was a couple of different companies talking about this. They would have 50, a hundred therapists working under them, sending them out to all different companies, but then there was also people from a cruise ship.
You had a seminar and I thought, oh, okay. So this answers my question. Would you like to have the whole world as your playground? So obviously I really paid my attention to their presentation and said, okay, yeah, this is what I’m going to do. First. I can definitely work in a spa onboard, a cruise ship and have my scenery shifting outside my window. At the same time I’m using my hands, my body as a tool to do my profession. I sent all my papers to all the Swedish cruise ships that we have in the Baltics. And one of them responded fairly quick. Apparently my application got in 40 minutes after one of the massage therapists on board had resigned. So they were signed, they went for lunch.
And when they came back from lunch, my email was top in the [00:30:00] inbox with my CV and everything. And they said, okay, perfect. Let’s call this guy. I don’t know how lucky you can be, but that was the start of it. So I went for the interview and everything went well and off, I went for my first cruise ship in the Baltic sea, where I would stay for six years.
[00:30:18] Sue: It’s such an amazing story to hear that the insights that you gained about yourself in that process, the decision-making process you used and that connection between mind and body, even from the process of becoming a massage therapist, as you look no further in your career in a cruise line, working as a massage therapist, is it your dream job at your mind?
[00:30:44] Thomas: Actually it is, I don’t even consider it a work. I am enjoying my interests, my training as a massage therapist this year, something that. Naturally for me, if that makes any sense, it doesn’t feel like I’m working. I get to do what I like. It’s my hobby, my interest, or how ever you want to describe it, I guess, and here I am doing it on a cruise ship, exploring the world and just doing a lot of those questions that I answered yes. To, without even realizing it.
[00:31:18] Sue: And as you look ahead, you talked about, you know, the body being the most amazing. Instrument to be explored. Do you intend to continue to explore it or are you absolutely happy with the massage therapy as being the route to that exploration and the massage therapy is the core of it.
[00:31:36] Thomas: And then as time changes all of us, it kind of pushes you off in different directions. You never stop evolving in that sense. And I’ve been having a lot of ideas to what I want to evolve further. I actually went to Thailand to start a thai massage, which completely blew my mind again, because it’s so different from Western and massage therapy. It’s quite the opposite. First rule in Swedish classic massage is, do not use your thumbs. And the first thing they said in Thailand, studying thai massage we’re going to use our thumbs a lot. Like thumbs will be your main tool for using trigger points and everything. And I was like, That’s a good contrast. We’ll see how this ends
[00:32:19] Sue: If there was one , life lesson that you, which share the things you’ve learned about your approach. Your career and how it has developed Thomas to date, what would be the lesson you would offer to our listeners?
[00:32:30] Thomas: Don’t be afraid to step out of the box. It will make you feel uncomfortable, but feeling uncomfortable is a very important step of evolving pushing through further to whatever adventure that awaits you, don’t be afraid to step outside of the box. It really makes a difference.
[00:32:50] Sue: Well, I think you’ve really encapsulated to the essence of our podcast series and your final words that Thomas it’s been a real pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for being our [00:33:00] guests on the podcast.
[00:33:01] Thomas: Thank you. You’re very welcome.
[00:33:05] Sue: So didn’t I tell you, it would be amazing! I loved this process that Thomas went through to discover his dream job and shows you what curiosity can bring you. If you’re open to following its path, you’ll find a transcription of this and all our other episodes on our website, just hop on over to access to inspiration.org. And why not look us up on social media too? We don’t LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook and Twitter. And before I go, remember to take our short impact survey or leave us a voice note about the effect that this podcast has had on you. All the details and links are on the show notes. Next time I’ll be speaking to Jenna Howieson a diversity equity and inclusion professional, who also discovered her career path through curiosity, by asking a question to the CEO of the company she was working in, I do hope that you can join us then.