49. Nashater Deu Solheim: Relationships are at the heart of leadership

Sue Stockdale talks to Dr Nashater Deu Solheim about how to take care of the relationships that are important to you– be it as a leader, in social circles or within families.  Nashater explains how showing empathy, curiosity, and an interest in the other person can help us to build trust and connection in relationships– something she had to do when working with psychopaths.

Dr Nashater Deu Solheim is CEO of Progressing Minds and author of “The Leadership PIN Code- Unlocking the Key to Willing and Winning Relationships”, which debuted on the 2020 Forbes list of 8 books “…that make you reconsider the way you manage relationships”.

She is an HBR contributor, executive coach on leadership influence, and a keynote speaker on her experience as a psychologist working with psychopaths, the military and with leaders in business settings. She holds a doctorate in Psychology from the UK and trained as an Expert Negotiator at Harvard Law School.

Connect with Nashater Deu Solheim on LinkedIn and Instagram  and Facebook and Twitter

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Key Quotes:

‘Leaders who don’t know their team members beyond the tasks, don’t really know their team at all’.

‘If you have no idea what’s going on in somebody’s life and you keep battling them to, to deliver harder, to live, deliver faster, deliver more, and you have no idea what’s holding them back- you will breach that trust and you will eventually lose it, and certainly lose their goodwill before that.’

‘Empathy is about understanding the other person’s perspective – to understand doesn’t mean to agree’.

‘Curiosity for me is the antidote to a lack of empathy’.

‘The reason we get uncomfortable is because we often feel that we have to fix things or have answers. And leaders do not need to have the answers to everything. It’s not a requirement’

Nashater Deu Solheim transcription

Sue: Welcome to the podcast Nashater.

Nashater: thank you so much. Sue, I’m delighted to join you. Thank you for having me.

Sue: You’ve got so much knowledge about human behavior, but I’m fascinated to learn more about. What got you interested in understanding human behavior in the first place?

Nashater:  I love this question. I have been asked it before and it’s one of those questions I wish I had a wonderful, succinct and a fascinating answer to. I don’t know if this is fascinating, but I do come from a very large family with seven children. Very, very different personalities. And I’m six in the hierarchy towards the bottom. So, I think it does go back probably to growing up in a large family.

Sue: And, where did then that interest take you in terms of your career?

Nashater: I studied psychology at university in Liverpool as a bachelor level. And it was during those studies. I discovered actually there’s a way in which you can use psychology in a very practical and clear fashion to help other people that really attracted my attention. There was also a module that really caught my attention. On forensic psychology. And so, it was then really, I decided to go in and train as a clinical psychologist. Once I finished my bachelor’s, I went onto my doctoral program and wanted to learn how to apply this in practice to help other people.

Sue: you’ve given us a nice segue into even more interesting part of your career and I’m working with psychopaths, which is always something I’m sure that people are intrigued to find out more about how did you end up doing that?

Nashater: When I was doing my clinical training, I did a specialist placement in forensic at a special hospital they called in the UK, which is essentially a maximum-security hospital, which is housing people who have committed offenses, usually very, very violent. And they are considered very dangerous individuals. Hence, they need maximum security environment, you know, lock high walls, barbed wire, locked doors and, and intensive supervision. But they’re called hospitals because they also present with a mental disorder or mental health. And I just fell in love with the whole way of using psychology to understand what brings people into these, experiences. What are their stories? What are their journeys? How can we as individual psychologists, but also as a society, perhaps even begin to think about preventing people from having these experiences where we can so that they don’t end up committing these terrible crimes and going on to creating the harm that they do both to others onto themselves.

I then decided once I’d left my clinical training to go and work in one of those hospitals, which I did for several years really looking at the role of mental disorder in offending and also the role of psychology and personality and subgroup of those people are classified as psychopaths, if I’m correct about that. And they are really the extreme end of that personality spectrum.

Sue: So I’m imagining. It also requires you to be doing a bit of adaptation going into work in that type of extreme environment. Nashater how did you prepare yourself for doing that effectively?

Nashater: You know, we have intensive and expert training. And the core of that really was about ensuring that you were aware of yourself as much as you were involved in looking at other people and assessing them and understanding them. You had to work on yourself, we had our own supervision, we had our own therapeutic experiences to make sure that we were able to understand what it really means to put other people through the processes , we’ve taken them through. And part of that training really was by how to handle high secure environments in my forensic training. And some of the things that I did that you now see actually me talking about in other settings and in my book or how you prepare yourself, you know, preparation being the biggest part of that process.

How do you prepare yourself before you walk into a room with somebody who has the propensity for violence that you may trigger something inadvertently, that you would. understand who they are. Do your homework, do your research, find out how they are presenting today, how they’re feeling, how they feel about seeing you. And you would also be very conscious about figuring out as much as you can about their interests and their drivers and their motivations so that when you go in and you speak to them and in this environment, you know, they were locked up and they had no power. Really? You carry all the power, you know, you’re wearing keys that open and close doors, and then. Very much in a, in a restricted environment, so important for you to understand those dynamics and how to bring out the best in the conversation that you need to have so that you can get the [00:04:30] information you need. So I was very well prepared. That was part of the training.

We were trained very much in understanding how to communicate non-verbally through body. Where to sit, how to sit, how to use our body language, to communicate openness and collaboration, where to sit in the room so that we were safe and able to exit, if there was a risk of violence or harm to ourselves. And then really, we were trained in the art of conversation. That’s the third part.

Sue: You know, many of our listeners may be leaders in organizations and hold power and other listeners may be on the way up the career ladder and be often going into conversations when they’re speaking to somebody who holds more power than they do, what are the things that are particularly relevant from your experience that they ought to be thinking of?

Nashater: I think it’s a great reflection and actually is exactly the reason I went into those working the way I do now with leadership and coaching, but also is now captured in the book. Really reflected when I became a leader myself, you know, I moved from that forensic environment. I’ve just mentioned moved into working with the ministry of defense and working with active military. And then I moved into working in business as a leader myself and then as a coach for other leaders. And when I arrived in that business environment, it was in my own experience of leadership that I started to draw on, the training that I’d had even more so. And I wasn’t expecting it to be as well. Outside of those environments that I had been trained to use them. And so when I find myself in a business environment as a [00:06:00] leader and drawing on, oh yes, it’s, it’s very helpful to know the person that you’re speaking to. The more research you do on what is their motivation for coming into this conversation with you? What are they interested in? What can be this win-win that we can create so that although I’m asking for support or, or I have an agenda I’m also able to. Meet their needs and make sure that they come away with, with value from the conversation and, you know, thinking about my body language, thinking about what questions should I ask casually? I opened this conversation. I was doing all of that. And the more I did it, the more I started to find myself sharing that in my coaching practice inside. At the time and people responded with all that’s helpful. We haven’t thought about it that way in such a systematic way. And it came from that when I observed other leaders, then when I began coaching further, that, that wasn’t necessarily always, some people certainly did it.

Yeah. So I’m in, by no stretch of imagination. We’re saying that there was some great leaders who I think without even realizing it were doing those things really preparing well, really conscious of how they were communicating non-verbally and verbally, but there were certainly many leaders I had experienced myself, others, I was coaching who didn’t have that insight or experience or understanding. And when I shared it with them, it was an aha moment. And they’re like, oh, if you do that in that way that you described what a difference it makes to the collaborative field of a conversation, what a difference it makes to how willing somebody is to go the extra.

Oh, I hadn’t thought about not just racing in with my [00:07:30] agenda and putting it on the table and demanding that it happened as a leader because I can’t. So to your question, yes, it really does help when you use these, these psychological techniques and practices to create a more collaborative environment, which isn’t about showing up with power. It’s about showing up as a willing partner in the conversation. At least that’s what I think is very effective.

Sue: Well, I must just let our listener know that you did draw model your practice in preparing for our conversations Nashater, which is always very refreshing for me to experience that when engaging with the guests. So I do commend you for actually role modeling what you talk about with me

Nashater: Well, thank you Sue, because it’s something now that has become, so Inherent in the way that I work, I’ve been, conscious of it when I’m using it for specific reasons, but , in these kinds of situations, I’m so curious about what it is that we’re going to do, and I want it to be such a good experience for us both. I guess it’s, it’s become really my everyday practice. Thank you for sharing.

Sue: , you mentioned the word neurodiverse a moment or two ago in what you were meant. You’re talking about Nashater, and I know that research shows these days at one in seven people in the workplace are likely to be neuro diverse. Thinking about leaders recognizing that maybe a number of people that they work with or they themselves are neurodiverse. How should they be mindful, unable to adapt to different types of people that may engage with them.

Nashater: What a wonderful way to describe our differences when we use this phrase neurodiverse, and I like to use it in its broadest sense. I know it refers actually to a specific spectrum of people or, or people with differences, but I actually use it in its wider sense that we are all neurodiverse. Every single one of us is slightly different to, to another person.And so I think it’s so important for leaders to see their team as diverse in itself, and to recognize the individual differences within the team. What the team has In common, a goal, a way of working, tasks focus areas, but they are individually different. And that diversity, if we are able to use that in such a way that we maximize it, or exploit in a positive way that diversity towards the common goal. I think that’s when you get high-performing teams, it’s when we, we ignore those differences, and we try to get people to move towards this common goal. In spite of those differences that we see a loss of productivity or drag as I call it, you know, where you’re not recognizing that somebody in this team needs a different way of communicating with you.

They need a different way of being explained to them or need another way of understanding this same task than the person next. I think that’s when we see a lot of drag. So celebrate the diversity of a team, really learn the individuals in your team, and then use that towards a common goal. I have a phrase, so I’ll just share it here where I say, you know, for leaders who don’t know their team members beyond the tasks, don’t really know their team at all. [00:10:30] And that’s a real pity because there is so much you can learn and then utilize together by learning each other better and deeper.

Sue: it makes me think about the tentative natures that leaders sometimes have, or reluctance or anxiety to perhaps go beyond what might be seen as work tasks. I’ve certainly come across many, leaders in conversations I’ve had where they say, oh, I don’t want to talk about private stuff with my team. I don’t want to go there. And yet I’m hearing you talk about them. Needing to get to know a person, better, get to know them more deeply in order to demonstrate empathy and get the best from that person. And for it to be a collaborative conversation, what would you suggest leaders do or anyone for that matter to be brave enough to go into those areas that they may perceive or uncomfortable?

Nashater: That’s something I also recognize is the challenge for many leaders who believe that really the reason somebody is at work is to do a task. And that if we just focus on that, whether the task is done or not, then, that’s, what’s most important, but what we miss them, what these leaders are missing there is that we are very complex human beings, not to overstate the obvious, but we are affected by our emotions, our thoughts, our experiences, and our feelings. And so when somebody is showing up at work and not delivering at their full potential capacities, as you would expect when you’ve known them to do before, would you not be curious as a leader to figure out what that’s about? And that, that might well be something that’s happening for them in the. Or it might be in their personal situation or relationship at home or with their children or, you know, something, I mean, as simple as driving into work, they may have had an accident. If we don’t take the time to see people in all their dimensions to understand what’s impacting their motivation and drivers at work, we lose the opportunity to build the trust.

And it’s really about trust. Building that trusting relationship with somebody who feels comfortable coming up to you and saying, the reason I’m not at my best today is because of this, but , so that you understand and you know, with that goodwill and that trust between you, they will be able to get back on track much more quickly with your support. If you have no idea what’s going on in somebody’s life and you keep battling up them to, to deliver harder, to live, deliver faster, deliver more, and you have no idea what’s holding them back. You will, you will breach that trust and you will eventually lose it. And certainly, lose their goodwill before that. So, it’s critical. I think for leaders to see that they are leading people, not task delivering machines and in understanding and using that emotional intelligence, that toolkit that they have to understand what’s driving this person, what brings the best out in them, but what might also affect them in terms of not being able to give their best. It’s so important. It’s actually a non-negotiable I [00:13:30] think in leadership.

Sue: you’re making me think about Nashater is fine, and they need to see their people as human beings, not just human doing.

Nashater: Oh, I love that. Yes, Sue. I do like that. Yes. If, if all we needed were tasks done, you know? Well, that’s where, where we’ve seen a lot of automation coming in and that’s where, you know, AI automation, digitalization, this huge digital transformation is taking place in organizations where tasks are getting replaced from using people to do them to automating is where the person doesn’t need to be in focus to get the tasks. I can’t see that there is an environment. I say this very boldly in my book. I don’t see that there is a business environment where a person is not required to somewhere in the business and where a person is required. We need to understand that they come with interesting experiences and motivations and drivers, and we need to pay attention.

Sue: That’s so important and one of the ways to do that, and I think we’ve used the word already in our conversation is to demonstrate empathy. And I know people often confuse empathy with agreement to somebody else’s point of view. How can anybody learn to demonstrate empathy whilst also not necessarily agreeing with somebody else’s viewpoint?

Nashater: You know, you’ll have heard people talking about, you know, leaders need to show empathy and they need to, you know, be vulnerable. And there’s a lot of these words being thrown around that are around leaders needing to get out of their own heads as I call it and be much more into the experience , of the other person. And empathy for me is key in that because empathy is about understanding the other person’s perspective now to understand doesn’t mean to agree. I’ve been a clinical psychologist for many years. I’ve. Patients coming into my clinics, you’ll have had very different experiences to those that I have had. And nevertheless, I’ve needed to help them and support them to move from those into a different way of being the healthy way of being or to recovery.

And I’ve had to empathize meaning I’ve had to try and put myself in their shoes and try to understand from their experience what they’re going through so that I can. That doesn’t mean that I have to have had the same experiences I couldn’t possibly, nor that I have to agree that what they’re going through is what is I need to agree with it.

You know, that you are feeling terrified and scared. I understand that in your situation, given your experiences, you feel terrified and scared of doing what it is. Do I need to agree that that’s the only way to. No, I don’t need to agree with that. I want to help you to move from that to a different way of being. So actually I’m more interested in taking that experience, validating it, showing empathy,  understand where you’re coming from, and I recognize how that’s come about and let’s look at how we can move forward. It’s very different to sympathy. Which is, I think it often gets confused where for me sympathy would be much more about aligning yourself with the other person’s feeling or agreeing with the other person’s feeling, you know, if you feel terrible or now I feel terrible too and how awful for you, whereas empathy particularly in the business environment is about understanding another person’s perspective, seeing how they have come to that decision or way of thinking and thinking about how we can move on from that towards whatever goal is.

How can leaders show it? Curiosity? Curiosity for me is the antidote to a lack of empathy. If you’re struggling to understand somebody else’s perspective, get into curious mind, listen very actively and ask very open questions. Silence actually can be very helpful. I think in empathy often we feel that the best way to show empathy is to keep talking, but listening silently and allowing the other person to speak. And then see if that curiosity opens up a different perspective.

Sue: And I’m curious now, from what you said there, I’m imagining that, that idea of asking a question, and not knowing what is likely to come back, it’s what often stops somebody asking the question, the first place, what in your experience helps somebody to keep going and not just to close down and not go.

Nashater: So for, for leaders who are uncomfortable with other people’s emotions, I think that may also be something that they struggle with in their personal lives. You know, we are human in leadership and a lot of what we bring to leadership is what we are like in other parts of our lives. So if a friend came to you or a child,, outside of your work environment came to you with some kind of emotional share. How would you show up for that person? What would you do now? It’s not that that’s directly transferable in its entirety. You may give that person a hug in your social life. You may open a bottle of wine and sit down and talk it through. I know that’s not what I’m recommending you do at work, but the point is that you would be drawing on you empathic skills. If you are good at it, or you are open to it, so you would listen, you would reflect back what you’re hearing. You would give empathic responses like, oh, that sounds like that’s very tough. How are you going to, to move forward from that? You know, what helped you need? How can I support you?

Those phrases that you would use and not dissimilar to what would be helpful to do in the work? That said, if you are uncomfortable, generally when people show emotions and you try to avoid opening up, that’s something I really think is part of your personal development as a leader. And you need to, to both reflect on and also get help with, but here’s something you can do in the most.

The reason we get uncomfortable is because we often feel that we have to fix things or have answers. And leaders do not need to have the answers to everything. It’s not a requirement. Often. What we’re looking for is leaders to become good coaches and to help the other person who shared and find their own answers. So rather than taking on the sadness, taking on and engaging and getting into the emotion that the person is showing, you can simply listen and ask questions so you can help the other person find their own answer. So for example, I encourage leaders to give empathic responses, which just reflect back what they’re seeing. So if somebody is in tears and saying, you know, this is really difficult, you can just reflect that back, both in your nonverbal language, which is very powerful by the way.

So, and far more powerful than what you’re going to say,  by showing through facial expressions and body language that you care that you’re paying attention, that you’re listening, you’re not on your phone while they’re doing that. You’re not tapping into your PC,  scribbling notes. You look them in the eye and you pay attention.

And you show up in body language to say, I’m here and I’m listening. And then you come back with, that what you’ve just shared there about the difficulties you’re having with your partner or, or with your colleague sounds very stressful. That’s simple validation can take you a long way.

You don’t need to get engaged and find the answers. You can then ask a follow-up question. So what have you thought about doing what kind of support have you sought? Well, whose advice have you looked into? What can I do to help. That can help leaders who are a bit uncomfortable to stay in the space of working on it together, then taking it on a feeling they’ve got to run away and find the right answers and solve the situation themselves.

Sue: That sounds like really an important distinction between actually what the role of a leader is. As you say, isn’t to have all the answers, perhaps to ask the right question.

Nashater: And I do find that a lot of leaders who struggle in their leadership role are doing one of two things. They are either deciding for themselves that that’s the role they’re going to take. So they run around fixing things, even when they’re not asked to, and that’s seen as micromanagement or interfering by, by their, their employees or they feel that they have to have all the answers and they feel over. When they don’t and it can make them feel that this thing called imposter syndrome, I’m supposed to be the one that knows everything has all the answers and I don’t, and that makes me feel inarticulate and incompetent. And I don’t feel I can lead this team because I don’t know enough. Neither of those is required in leadership what’s required is the ability to have a very clear direction of where this, this team or this organization needs to go to be able to communicate that clearly and not to have all the answers. But to work collaboratively with your team to find those answers towards that direction, that you already tend to event that really is at the heart of the leadership I gave.

Sue: Well, I would certainly agree with you on that one. And what do you think makes it difficult to decouple our emotions from our behavior so that any of us don’t avoid those tricky conversations when we are potentially overwhelmed with emotions or feelings of uncertain. How can we be better at doing that?

Nashater: Well there’s a neurosis to that, which I won’t go into deeper. And there’s a lot of good literature on, on why we are so quick to emotion, and what’s happening in our brains and, and with our hormones and our physical physiological responses, some of you will have heard of flight and fight, when we’re in a threatening situation, even if it’s not the bus coming towards us. Conflict conversation. That same part of our system  is triggered. This need to either get into the argument or, or run away and get away from it. And, there’s a lot going on there, , physiologically, which means that we are responding very quickly in a knee-jerk way without pausing for thought and reflection before we respond.

And so how can we decouple? It is exactly that is to introduce a. Between the feeling and the urge, I’m getting to jump into conflict or to run away from it. For example, to pause and reflect and, and give you time to consider what is it that’s being triggered in me. Why am I feeling the way I’m feeling? What are the thoughts going around in my head? How can I create a reflective space? And that might mean discussing it with somebody else to just get some clarification, to get a different perspective, to think through your options before you go into it. So it is that physiological tendency we have that is driving the emotions to give us knee-jerk reactions in our behavior, but we can interrupt that flow and it does take practice and it won’t come easily and it will come.

Easily to some than others, to be able to create that pause. And I often use a traffic light system with, with leaders when I’m working with them and say, when you feel that urge coming to jump in and criticize or to speak or to solve, or to fix, just sit for a moment, buy yourself some time and think through what are my options here and why am I wanting to out the way I am? And is that the right response to have.

Sue: I’m imagining the set of traffic lights  in my mind. Now, what do the red Amber and green stand for?

Nashater: the red is obvious. Just stopping your tracks. don’t, don’t say it don’t write it. Don’t press send on the email. Don’t shout it. Don’t fix it. just stop, just stop for a moment. And whether that stopped for literally a moment or you’ve got the time, for example, to buy yourself some time, you might encourage leaders to,  rather than answer the mail straight. Just send them out saying, let me think on that and get back to you tomorrow serve it up as a, as a pause. So the other person knows why you’re going to take some time. Don’t just go quiet. nobody likes radio silence when they put out a request. So just let them know you’re going to need some time and then go and do that. Stop, create a space, either in the moment or longer. If you have the option and communicate that you’re doing that, then the Amber is really your research time. Go and figure out what. That I can do here. What are my options either on your own or using a sparring partner or coach or a colleague in your inbox? This is what I’m thinking. You know, what might be my biases here?, they’re making me wanting to do this, take this particular course of action. What other options do I have? What would you do, et cetera? And then green is okay. Once I’ve done that evaluation of what my options are, then I can go in and I am in a calm state of mind now because I’ve decoupled the emotion. So by the time I go into responding, I’m not responding from an emotional defensive or knee-jerk place. I’m responding from a concern. And actually, having the other person in mind place, because I’ve thought through, what’s not just right for me, but what’s right  for you. What are you needing in this situation? And so when I respond, when I go green, I’m taking care of what you also need in this conversation.

Sue: Hmm. That’s a really easy way to remember it. I like the, like the traffic light idea. So I’m going to hold that in my mind for future. Absolutely. Now we began our conversation today with you talking about an, an interest as a young girl in human behavior and that driving your career path. If we look at it from perhaps a few years on down in your career and all of the experiences that you’ve gained to date. What are the insights that, you know, have about humans and how they behave?

Nashater: Oh, gosh, that’s an enormous question. So isn’t it fascinating question. And I probably could spend a whole day or longer. Yeah. Answering that a couple of insights. I think that have more recently dawned on me through, when, when you’re writing a book, you reflect on exactly that, what are all the lessons experiences that I’ve had and how, how do they make sense for me to, and how do I use them now? So a couple of things I would share one is that when we talk about diversity, It only gets us so far humans when they work together. Yes, we are diverse, but at some point we also have a lot in common and that there is an important element when we’re working together with other people, whether it’s in relationships, I’m talking intimate relationships in partners together, or in business, as teams and leaders and teams or colleagues that at some point, what we have in common needs to be as important as what makes us tick. Because it’s what we have in common that helps us to work collaboratively and move forward together as much as it is, what I can bring versus what you can bring. So that was one thing that I reflected on that we need to talk more about our commonalities as well. As much as we do our differences, the second reflection I had was the importance of focusing on the other person’s interests.

It’s a real revelation to me when I did my negotiation training, how much we can solve in conflict and disagreement in, those kinds of difficult conversations when we have the other person’s interests and drivers’ or motivations in focus. Battling on with what we need, what I need what’s in my head, what’s my agenda. My insight was we are, our knee jerk is to think about ourselves first. You know, I have this idea in my head, so I’m going to share it. I have this thought I need to speak it. I have this need. I need to fulfill it. And to even with the best intentions, collaborative intentions, you tend to have a focus on your own agenda so that if we can pay more attention at the start. To the interests of the other person, we can get so much further in a more collaborative happier way, essentially. So those would be my two insights, I think.

Sue: Really important insights. Are those contained within your book that you’ve been mentioning?

Nashater: They are, they absolutely are. And perhaps, I’d want to highlight that I did a TEDx talk on, on what I learned from working with psychopaths and what that taught me about leadership. And in there, I make a point about the importance of being authentic. we need to be our true selves and show up as our true selves, but the importance of being authentic with empathy. And we’ve talked a lot about empathy today. So, that’s the reason I wanted to mention that was, you know, it created quite a bit of debate that that Ted talk and that, because of the idea that we encourage people to be authentic show up as your true selves, but when your true, authentic self. Means that it comes at the cost of the other person. Perhaps you’d like to be brutally honest where other people don’t appreciate that approach, or you tend to be very dogmatic and controlling and people in your environment. Don’t appreciate that approach then being authentic but having empathy towards how other people like to be treated is so important, particularly in a work environment. Because if you live in a vacuum, sure, you can be authentic and you can be your true self and never have to filter what you say or do. But when we are working collaboratively with other people, being authentic, but showing up with empathy is the difference between, engaging other people and then disengaging.

Sue: Well, I think. You have brought the reminder to me that it’s not just about the me, it’s about the we, and, and even outside of business. If, if the way we look at society is to be competent of the effect we’re having on other people. When we’re being authentic is how I’m interpreting what you’re.

Nashater: Exactly. We’re talking about business leadership, and we can also think about our families. If we think about us as social circles, we are together with other people. And if you want those relationships to, thrive and to be sustainable, then taking care of them is important. Right? We would say that where we have relationships that are important to us, we want to take care of them. Well, taking care of our relationships. Showing empathy and understanding other people’s needs aside from our own. So that’s really at the heart of all relationships.

Sue: Well, I I’ve learned so much from you today, and really the word empathy is going to stick in my mind. And it really does put a spotlight and a reminder, hopefully for our listener about what access inspiration is all about. It’s about helping to highlight the commonalities as opposed to the differences between all of us as human beings. So, it’s really been wonderful to speak to you today. How can people find out more about the work that you do and the book that you have?

Nashater: So thank you so much. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our conversation and highly inspired by your journey and story actually.  I’m, I’m thrilled to have been able to join you today. So the best way would be to either find me on progressing minds, which is my business website or on LinkedIn. I am very active on LinkedIn. My book is also available through Amazon. So if you key in my name or the leadership pin code, which is the title of the book, then you can easily find my details there. So please reach out. I’m pretty good at getting back to people personally. So, I’d be very happy to connect with anybody who’s in.

Sue: Well, that’s great. And then we will put all the details on the show notes. So make it easy for our listener to be able to find out where you are located on social media., thank you again for your wonderful insights today about human behavior. It’s been great to speak to you.

Nashater: thank you.  and great to speak to you too. Enjoy the rest of your day.