Sue Stockdale talks to Nic Marks, statistician and Founder & CEO, Friday Pulse about the work he has done on measuring happiness and why it’s important to businesses, governments and countries, as well as individuals. Described by one client as a “statistician with a soul”, Nic has been working in the field of happiness and wellbeing for over 25 years.
In 2010 Nic gave a TED talk on his previous work in public policy, which has now been watched over 2.3million times. Named as one of the Top Ten Original Thinkers by the Institute of Director’s Director Magazine, Nic’s work was hailed as one of Forbes Magazine’s Seven Most Powerful Ideas in 2011.
As Founder and CEO of Friday Pulse, Nic shares his creative thinking with leading organisations on how positive emotions drive productivity and profit.
Friday One Free tool to reflect on individual happiness
Friday Pulse The weekly people check-up for companies
Key quotes in this podcast:
[01.40] Our happiness is very driven by all sorts of social connectedness and relationships and the quality of them.
[02.33] We tend to measure what’s easy to count, not whats most important.
[07.00] We want to create a future which is good for citizens in the future, then we have to look at how we create that.
[10.52] When we feel good, we do good work, but it’s very close to our mood.
[11.55] I think of happiness like having different wavelengths.There’s very long to ones, over years and decades and we have good periods of our life, and then there’s very, very rapid ones, five moods in the morning.
[12.23] We talk about five big drivers to happiness at work. They are Connect, Be Fair, Empower, Challenge, Inspire.
[16.20] We definitely find that some organisations worry about opening a Pandora’s box of emotions. And the thing is they’re there already, if they’re not in the light, they’re festering and are causing problems.
[16.47] We are not trying to shame team leaders. We’re basically trying to help them have better conversations with their teams.
Nic Marks Transcription: Measuring Happiness
Sue: [00:00:00] Hi, Sue Stockdale and welcome to the access to inspiration podcast. The show where you can get inspiration from people who may be unlike you. We hope their stories and insights enable you to transcend your day-to-day challenges and reflect on what you are capable of achieving. I hope you’re enjoying this series on the theme of 21st century change-makers. When I was discussing it with Clive Steeper, the other co founder of this podcast, we were thinking about what aspects we should explore. He suggested happiness and wellbeing. As it’s been a subject in all of our minds during the pandemic. That’s what led us to today’s guest. Nic Marks, who is founder and CEO of Friday Pulse described by one client as a statistician with a soul. Nic has been working in the field of happiness and wellbeing for over 25 years. Welcome to the podcast, Nic. Great to have you here.
Nic: [00:01:07] Lovely. Thank you for asking me.
Sue: [00:01:09] Well, there’s so much we could talk about and to thinking about measurement and statistics and happiness. So many ways we could take this conversation. So maybe I’m want to just kick off and see if I was to ask you what generally makes you happy. Nick, what springs to mind?
Nic: [00:01:23] Oh, I think I’m very typical in that relationships are the biggest key to happiness. You know, the times in [00:01:30] my life where I’ve been unhappy, its been because relationships are broken down and, or you’ve been lonely or your school when you didn’t fit in. And we’re very relational as beings. So our happiness is very driven by all sorts of social connectedness and relationships and the quality of them.
Sue: [00:01:44] There’s a kind of a real emotional element to what you’re saying. There sounds to me like a mix of things you’re bringing to what you do in your work.
Nic: [00:01:52] Yes, I guess that’s what makes me a slightly unusual statistician. I trained as a therapist when I was young, too. So I am quite emotional. My mother was a family therapist and I love the whole emotional realm is how we feel alive. So it probably is no accident. I ended up being the guy that measures happiness because you know, I’ve got that sort of hard statistical skill and the sort of softer people, ones. Yeah.
Sue: [00:02:15] So that’s, to me a really interesting and important combination in terms of having that balance of those two things and yet in our planet and society, it seems like, and I’m sure you’ll be able to tell me from your research as well, that very often we’re skewed in terms of what we’re measuring.
Nic: [00:02:33] Yes. We tend to measure what’s easy to count, not whats most important. I mean, sometimes things are easy to count and important, but they’re not necessarily. And so. I’ve become interested in how you create measures of people’s experience of life. And I kind of use that quite carefully. I don’t think we have a capture precisely to three decimal places what’s going on, but we can create numbers which are indicators and that they help us make decisions better.
And [00:03:00] so you have to get used to a different type of data. And of course, some statisticians, data people don’t like some of the ambiguity, when you measure things, what we call subjective measures, you’re asking people their perception of these other own for other things. And, you know, we have problems with polling data. Do people tell the truth and things like that. And these are issues at the margins, but it’s a new type of data, subjective data, and it tells different information and it’s very, very useful. And that’s what I’ve spent the last 15, 20 years of my career, thinking about how you create useful measures that actually help create positive change in the world.
Sue: [00:03:33] And how has that then been received by those organizations, governments, countries that you’ve worked with?
Nic: [00:03:40] It’s much more receptive these days, but I started out, I started off as a more hardcore statistician with my stats. I was measuring long-term effects of climate change in 1994. So sort of, quite ahead of the game with things like that, though, of course there were lots of economists and people doing work like that at that time, but just its what interests me as a young man.
And then as I started to get more into wellbeing and happiness, I worked at a think tank in London. His reason for being was around social justice and sustainability. And I was the guy in the corner with slightly long hair saying we should talk about happiness guys. And they were a little, um, not dismissive, but you know, they sort of gave me a desk.
And then when the work that I started to lead and start to build a team became really successful. Obviously everyone took notice and that came from about 2004 onwards. So it moved in that 10 years from people really not wanting to talk about these things to people, starting to open it up and. I would say working in [00:04:30] government policy and the Cameron government, and then that, well, the first thing, the Tony Blair government than the Cameron government were really quite very interested in this space.
And we started to do a lot of quite influential work to the, whatever we call that decade, the noughties or whatever people call it. But the two thousands, I guess, that took us all by surprise. I was doing work. I believed, and I didn’t particularly expect it to be widely taken up and successful.
Sue: [00:04:50] And in terms of the impact that, cause you say it’s been successful, what have been some of the impacts then that are measured if you like?
Nic: [00:04:59] Well, so when I was in the policy world, so I now work on work and we can talk about that later, but the policy work I did in the two thousands, we started out with an aim that we might get the Scottish government or the Welsh assembly to create a measure of wellbeing. And the next 10 years, and then David Cameron launched the office of national statistics, accounts of wellbeing in 2011, 2012.
And so that sort of success that actually governments were going to invest in this type of measurement and to promote it was a weird thing. I mean, you know, we’re one of two or three groups that were campaigning on this area. I mean, there’s quite a lot of academic work on this area, but in the sort of think tank while we were really the only one that was really promoting this hard at that time, It was really gratifying to have a decade of your work, where you had clear outcomes. Obviously, my Ted talk, which came in 2010 was a personal marker, but you know, in the end, Ted talks don’t actually change very much, but the fact that government starts measuring it and now the government has data and the office of national statistics had a whole system set up that, you know, when COVID struck, they could move from monthly measurement to weekly measurement and things like that.
They had their ways [00:06:00] of doing it so they could respond to what they needed to do. I’m not saying it necessarily affects policy at its core, but at the margins, it’s starting to have an effect and something like this will take decades to start to feel. And of course it may be a project that gets abandoned. You know, we’ve been very dominated politically by Brexit and other things over the last decade. So there’s been less space for it, but I would imagine it will come back because of the sense of what is people’s experience of life. And I think that’s what policy should be about improving people’s lives.
Sue: [00:06:27] And I know that you’ve also worked in developing the happy planet index. Tell me about that. What does that involve?
Nic: [00:06:32] So the Happy Planet Index, this was a very campaigning part of my work. When I was at the organization, new economics foundation, I was challenged to come up with an indicator for sustainable development, that included wellbeing. And basically the idea of it was to say that the purpose of nations is to create good lives for their citizens. That don’t cost the earth. Which is a really reasonable request and you could measure it. And so the happy planet index first came out in 2006. And again, it was expecting a few UK media to pick it up, but actually within two weeks we had 180 different countries around the world publish the happy planet index and then newspapers. And it really got things buzzing. The reason was, was I think it put happiness in a great context, which was saying that in some ways there is something called the world happiness report that now it comes out and it was show Scandinavia wins, which is yes. Interesting. But I think not unexpected, but you know, whereas happy planet index says, let’s look at Costa Rica, let’s look at Vietnam and let’s look at countries that are using much less resources to achieve [00:07:30] 90% of the wellbeing of the west, or even Costa Rica who has got absolutely level with the west on well-being measures.
So it’s really saying if we want to create a future, which is good for citizens in the future, then we have to look at how we create that. And we will be doing a new happy planet index later this year. Which we’re going to use the data from the pandemic year, which will be a little challenging because the data is only really some of the data like on carbon footprint things, right.
We’ll be ahead of release, but we’re make very good estimates of it and we can do it. And Happy Planet Index just captured the imagination really. And so it was really to sort of change hearts and minds. It’s not an indicator you can make policy on in that detailed level because it’s very high level. But it’s one that can change the debate. And we see it taught in a level economics. Now university economics courses will start showing the little video of me on Ted about us. Sometimes get texted by one of my nieces or nephews going Uncle Nic you are speaking on my economics lecture, which is very funny.
Sue: [00:08:26] Well, you can see that you measure the impact of your effectiveness is then if you can reach your family members by their learning as well. It kind of makes me think of, I did hear you have this conversation in another interview you did was about how every day we get the information about the FTSE 100 index or the exchange rate in the newspapers and the media. How do you think that a measure around happiness and wellbeing could also be incorporated in some way?
Nic: [00:08:50] The issue with it is so, yes, we could mention things. And in fact, you gov in the UK, they measured the mood of the nation weekly and they released that data. At least is normally [00:09:00] in normal times, it’s relatively stable things like the weather affect our daily mood. So when it’s sunshines, like it is, today is a glorious sunny day today. Everyone feels lifted. And particularly in the UK where we have quite variable weather. Two of my team are in India and it’s sunny every day and it’s relentless. So, so it’s about the variability isn’t it, but it’s quite stable in their population, but of course COVID has been exceptionally interested with it because the pandemic has absolutely impacted everybody’s daily, weekly experience.
And the data absolutely reflects that. It’s a huge crash in population and indeed employee wellbeing in March. There was some recovery last summer, there was another huge dip and most of the population in the autumn that peak at Christmas huge dip again, with the way below pre pandemic levels of happiness in the population.
I know only a weekly measure can start to show those changes. Hopefully we won’t have another global pandemic like that. And so the more interesting thing from a policy perspective is in government policy is the long-term trends in businesses. That’s very different. Actually weekly mood is massively important because it’s very linked to productivity, creativity, innovation.
Those are the things. And for us, it’s important, but across the whole population, each of us have our own ups and downs. Your football team wins if you’re a football fan and that will probably put you up. If they lose, they go down. If you get married, you’ll hopefully going to have a happier life, at least for a while. And so those personal things, but at a population level, they tend to balance out.
Sue: [00:10:23] So you’ve introduced this idea and we can take our conversation towards the organizational level rather than the country or governmental [00:10:30] level. And thinking about happiness and wellbeing. And I know you have created indicator around how organizations can be measuring that. Tell me about that.
Nic: [00:10:38] The idea really what we do, I’ve a company called Friday Pulse and what we do is we measure the weekly experience of employees because that’s so close to the business issues, which are, do people feel confident in their work? Are they learning things? Are they creative? Are they engaged? You know, effectively? I would say happiness is a better measure of engagement. than most engagement measures because it’s people’s felt experience. And when we feel good, we do good work, but it’s very close to our mood. And so measuring it weekly is great for businesses. Basically what we do is we create effectively a data feedback loop for people, which is that. We ask everyone one on a Friday. That’s why we called Friday Pulse how was your week? And you’re looking back in your week, how was it, how did you feel? And then a Monday we feed all that results back to team leaders, lots of teams, actually the whole team, to division heads who organise it and they can see what the mood of the, all the teams are. COVID was a huge setback for everybody at the same time. But every team, every organization has its own personal setbacks. Whether that’s the stress of a product launch or its a merger or its clients or it’s this it’s whatever, you know, there’s things going on all the time. And so sometimes I think of like happiness, having different wavelengths.
There’s very long to ones, you know, over years and decades and we have good periods of our life and that’s so, and then there’s very, very rapid ones, five moods in the morning. People do try and measure things right through the day. But yeah, that’s very burdensome. You can’t be expecting people to answer all the time, but to [00:12:00] answer once a week is a good compromise.
Sue: [00:12:02] So with that measure, I’m imagining it a bit like the old days of a graphic equalizer, where you have different dials that you’re switching to adjust to get the best sound quality for your piece of music. What are the dials? What are the five things? If there are five things that are being measured. In an organization that then can influence that happiness indicator.
Nic: [00:12:23] You tee’d that very nicely for me. We do talk about that being five ways to happiness at work. And these are basically the big sort of drivers of people’s good experience at work. And they are connect, which is relationships. As I said, that are most key, really be fair, that if we don’t feel we’re treated fairly, we don’t really get into happiness space, it evokes anger when we feel treated unfairly. Empower, which is about being ourselves, making our own decisions. Using our strengths. Challenge is actually challenge and stretch is really good for our wellbeing and happiness at work. Boredom’s a total killer actually boredom is much worse than stress. It’s not to say stress is good. It’s not good. It’s too much stress, but boredom is much more corrosive than stress. And then the final is to feel inspired, which is that we like what we’re doing. We feel we’re achieving goals. We feel we’re attached to something bigger than ourselves. It’s a great change process. So those are the five things connect, be fair. empower, challenge inspire. And we talk about as the big drivers.
Sue: [00:13:24] Hi, it’s me again. I hope you’re enjoying this episode and if you are, please don’t keep [00:13:30] your thoughts to yourself, but take a minute to review this podcast series for us. You can know, do so easily by going over to the access to inspiration.org website and right there on the homepage, you will find a link to click on we’d really appreciate you taking them on to do that. now back to Nic. . You’re also making me think about the word fear, which isn’t one of those five measures. How do you see that fear plays in to measuring happiness work?
Nic: [00:14:02] If fear can be thought of as an emotion, emotional experience and what psychologists will tend to call one of the key negative emotions. And they don’t mean negative by being dysfunctional. They mean negative as it’s responding to a threat. And it motivates us in the sense that it makes us want to avoid whatever the outcome is. Um, so there is a way that management by fear works to an extent in that it gets people to want to avoid the negative consequences without, um, if it’s internal fear of your boss, it’s a really negative way of motivating people.
If it’s fear of something happening in the market, something happening outside, you need to respond to. That’s a sort of positive, constructive use of fear in a way. And there’s evidence to show that what tends to happen with this? Yes, we do get some energy, but it’s very, very particular to dealing with the fear.
Whereas when we’ve got the energy from enthusiasm or interest or curiosity, we’re much more expansive in [00:15:00] how we, you know, so we’re much more creative and possibilities. So. Creativity. If you set people a creative task, you motivate some people by fear and some people by enthusiasm, joy, inspiration within the people who have positively motivated solve the problem four or five times as often or four to five times as quickly.
So it’s massively important for creativity. And it’s just much nicer to everybody than to do it that way, but it would be wrong to say that fear doesn’t work to an extent it does, but it’s much more positive and constructive. I would say about three times more in terms of productivity, benefits, creativity, benefits, loyalty benefits. I mean, if you make people frightened, they’re going to leave. So you haven’t got a stability of team there. So there’s not much positive to say about managing by fear, but it would be wrong to say that it doesn’t work at all.
Sue: [00:15:45] As you’re talking there Nic,, I’m just thinking about, because I’m not a proponent of fear as being a way to motivate people at all I should say. And yet I’m seeing about the introduction of this way of measuring in organizations. I’m thinking why don’t organizations snap your hand off and take your organization up on introducing this and is sometimes the reticence to using happiness as a measure and wellbeing. Is there some fear or, um, does that put a greater responsibility on me as a leader to behave differently? Who’s responsible for generating the happiness is maybe where my question is heading.
Nic: [00:16:20] I think we definitely do find that some organizations worry about opening a Pandora’s box of emotions. And the thing is they’re there already, if they’re not in the light, [00:16:30] they’re festering they are causing problems. So occasionally we’ve had organizations where they unveil something that they needed to deal with, that they’ve been avoiding. And we see that certainly with teams, there’s always micro-cultures around teams and actually our data will show which teams look more functional than not. And what we try and do is work with the team leaders to improve it.
We’re not trying to shame team leaders. We’re basically trying to help them have better conversations with their teams. And in our product, we do go to quite a lot of effort to include team leaders in it, because if they enjoy using our product, everything works. And so we try and help them be a better team leader is sort of ethos of that. Yeah, we see some organizations that think I’ll go. If I talked about happiness, they’re going to want more benefits more, this more that actually what people want is better relations, better relations, more key goals, feel that they want a boat together and they’re making the boat go fast.
I mean, a happy ship goes better in some ways the alignment is absolutely there. It does. It need a sort of enlightened leader to boldly go for it. But what we find is that most senior leaders, after a while, they really get it. After the senior leaders themselves are really reluctant to engage with Friday pulse on their own thing. And I think it’s because actually they know in their heart parts of that they’re quite stressed. And so they sort of a bit worried about exposing their vulnerability. That’s a journey for them and it can work without them expressing their vulnerability tends to work better with if senior leaders actually do engage with it. Yeah. It is a difficult thing because we haven’t really in Britain been good at expressing our emotions and talking about them. So we’re getting a lot better.
[00:18:00] Sue: [00:18:00] And do you find that there’s a better take up from other countries other than the UK?
Nic: [00:18:04] I think it’s a business tool in lots of ways. I mean, we can go into the sort of like, oh, it’s great to build a whole happier world of work. And I totally in that mission, but it’s sensible business. It’s good business as well as good practice. So there’s a real alignment. In fact, we just released data. I don’t know if you saw it last week on COVID and how it impacted everyone’s happiness and. I said about earlier, how it went down and then up and down again.
Now all clients have the first dip, not as deep as the UK population, they haven’t had a second or third dip with the people’s experience at work. Doesn’t mean to say that people outside of work haven’t got problems, but at work they’ve managed to keep the conversations going and. keeping remarkable stability. In a sense, when we talk about resilience, we talk about resilience as the ability to bounce back from a shock but also the ability to absorb a shock. And the first COVID shock, everybody felt caught us all by surprise. But the second wave was not a surprise. And our clients who are already putting well-being front and center, that’s why they’re using us.
You know, it’s not, we’re not the only thing they do. But our clients have been absolutely resilient in it. I mean, they’re still lower than last year, of course, but 5% lower. Whereas the UK population looks like it’s 20, 25% low in any wellbeing measure. So it’s a big difference.
Sue: [00:19:18] And if any of our listeners are not employed in an organization that’s using that kind of measure to evaluate happiness and wellbeing, what can an individual do? So, you know, I just [00:19:30] relate to our as being access to inspiration., inspire being one of the things that you’re measuring, what can any individual do to evaluate their own level of happiness on a regular basis. And perhaps that the role this podcast is playing in their inspiration?
Nic: [00:19:44] we created a measure called Friday one, which is just a free tool for individuals to checkup on their own happiness at work. And it’s basically 15 questions which get into those drivers of happiness at work connect, be fair and power challenge inspire. And it gives you a nicely designed reports with your data back. It benchmarks you against the UK or wherever you are against people you were saying similar age and things like that and shows you, but it’s mainly a reflection tool is to say, this is if you answer, honestly, give you an honest answer back again.
And it’s a bit like one of those 16 personalities sort of questionnaire’s like Myers Briggs, except it’s more action orientated Its more saying, these are the things you can do. And in a way it’s kind of inspired from my therapeutic days, my therapy days and that a good therapist, really what they do is that they listen to you and they reflect back to you how you’re feeling.
And then maybe they ask you some questions to help you make better decisions. So the tool Friday one is designed the same way listens by asking you questions. It reflects back by sending you a report in the report or questions for you to reflect on. And for me, awareness coming into awareness is the start of change processes. And whether that’s individual team-based organization or global, it’s about becoming aware as the [00:21:00] first steps towards creating things. And so I try and create statistical tools that increase awareness around what was going on in order to help people make better decisions.
Sue: [00:21:09] So there’s something for the individual here that can help them as well as somebody working in an organisation?
Nic: [00:21:14] Yeah. They can just go to Friday one.com and it’s just a free test, takes five minutes and it’s fun and useful.
Sue: [00:21:21] So how do you keep challenging you then? Nic? What are the numbers that are in your mind that are coming to your awareness?
Nic: [00:21:27] Obviously me and my team, we measure our experience weekly and allows you to note on there like what a success is for you, who you want to thank because we try and create basically positivity, resonance recorded within team. I do mention my happiness every week. And I obviously I’m someone that’s deeply reflective. I’m a kind of slow moving bear. I’m not a fast creature. I walk, I don’t meditate. My walk is my set of meditation, but I’m quite reflective and slow. If I get too busy, I get a bit stressed and sometimes during COVID. Absolutely. I’ve got stressed and just have to take an emergency day off or allow myself not to get to work until 10 instead of eight 30 or so. That’s self care is pretty good in me, you know, like everybody. Sometimes I’d like to create more free tools for individual, but I kind of just have to get my business going a bit before I’ve always got a thousand ideas, but she’s not even my number two. I work for this really, but Liz says to me, right, no new ideas, Nic we’re just doing the ones we’ve had already. Okay. No new ideas. And so. They keep coming.
Sue: [00:22:26] So just like when somebody might be measuring [00:22:30] their weight, if they want to lose weight or get fitter, they set themselves a goal in the longer term using your measure. What’s the goal that you want to see in terms of how the world might be different or how organizations might be different in the longer term.
Nic: [00:22:42] There is something fundamentally different. Like if you wear a Fitbit or apple watch or whatever, and you count your steps, it actually gives you new information about yourself. Because actually we don’t know how many steps you’ve done I do find apps like that really useful because I’m not the fittest person. Cause I. I don’t like to sweat during exercise, but I do walk. So that’s good. The issue we do is we ask you how happy you are. So when we reflect back to you, this is not exactly new information, because you’ve just told me. So it’s something like Friday one becomes more interesting because it gets into the drivers and it’s signposting to you, how you can reflect and do on that.
Having said that, I think that measuring weekly does show you the ebbs and flows of our experience. And we all have it. I was in a pickle personally about eight years ago, just got divorced and I didn’t really quite know where I was going. And I went to this therapist and she said to me, Nic can you write out a word about every year of your life?
So you start when you’re zero and then you go through every year of your life. Right. And I thought this is going to be a really profound. It is, it is a profoundly exercise but it was, wasn’t what I expected. And I came back expecting to have to go through the whole life story, which is a really useful process when you’re in counseling or therapy.
And she said, what do you really notice about it? And I said, well, they were good years and they were bad years and she said, yeah, you’re in a bad time at the moment. But look, you’ve always come out to them before. And so [00:24:00] understanding that I’ve had bad times before. Am I’ve found my way out there made me understand that I was going to find my way out of it.
And that, yes, it’s a period its a period for reflection for licking wounds, all that sort of stuff that you do when that sort of thing happens in your life. And it’s also time for rebuilding. And so it was really helpful. And I think in that way, Understanding that it’s normal to not be happy all the time. It’s also normal to want to be happy. That’s a perfectly valid thing I used to say, you know, cause I had a relationship go wrong and it wasn’t the first one to go wrong. I was going, oh my God, I’m terrible at relationships. And how could I choose again? I felt like I’d really lost my confidence and how I was choosing a partner and I needed to reflect and then make better choices.
Sue: [00:24:43] And did you make a better choice in the future? That’s what I’m wanting to know. How did this story end?
Nic: [00:24:47] I’ve been very happily married since I was about four years now. And it’s my, certainly the best relationship of my life. And it’s the most honest, it’s like, I think by the time you get to my age in the fifties, you can’t be anybody else, but yourself, you can’t pretend to be anybody else be yourself.
And so to be in a relationship where you feel that there’s no pressure to be anyone other than yourself is great. And in fact, to take that back to work, it’s one of our key indicators at work. Can you be yourself at work? If people kind of have to put on an armor to go to work. That’s something we call emotional labor. So people who work in very frontline work have to smile all day and be happy when they’re not, that’s really hard work. I’m not saying you should be miserable and bad to customers, but it’s like, you sort of need your way of being yourself at work. So I think that not [00:25:30] pretending to be something else, it’s just be yourself at work is the best option. I think that’s the same in a relationship.
Sue: [00:25:36] So I think that the very useful insight for our listener to make sure that they can be themselves. If people want to find out more about you, Nic and the work that you do, how might they do that?
Nic: [00:25:46] Friday one.com is the personal checkup about happiness at work. It’s fun, easy to use five minutes, you get something Friday Pulse for organizations there are demo videos and things like that that you can look at or book a demo. If you’ve got a team or organization that is interested, happy planet index is just happy planet index to August, 2014 data or something at the moment, but come back in November and there’ll be a new one of those. I have a personal website, Nick marks.org, and I’m most active on LinkedIn. I post least every fortnight and article on there and stuff like that. So just send me a contact request or follow me.
Sue: [00:26:19] Brilliant. Well, I’m sure they’re listening to this podcast will be able to get the sense of your happiness through the sound of your voice. Nic I can see you smiling and it’s been a pleasure to have this conversation today. Thank you so much for your time.
Nic: [00:26:31] Thank you, Sue.
Sue: [00:26:33] Thanks for listening to this episode, I immediately went on to Friday one.com to measure my own happiness. So you might want to try that too. In the next episode, I will be speaking to Tanmay Vora whose ideas and thinking on leadership, learning and change are conveyed in the amazing sketch notes that he creates. I do hope you’ll join me then. [00:27:00] .
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