41. Amy Henderson: Building a better future for working parents

Sue Stockdale talks to Amy Henderson, one of the USA’s leading voices on the critical role of parenting and caregiving has in developing the future of work.  Amy talks about her own experiences as a working parent, the challenges she faced, and some of the research and data from neuroscience that explains how showing up for parenthood significantly enhances your capacity for emotional intelligence, courage, efficiency, productivity, purpose, and collaboration.

Amy is the founding CEO of TendLab, where she is creating a movement to change the game for working parents.  With only 14% of American parents having access to paid parental leave, Amy explains what motivated her to create TendLab as a way of addressing how working parents are valued in the workplace.

Through TendLab, Amy has worked with companies and their parents’ groups at places like Salesforce, Accenture, Cloudflare, and many more.  As cited in Forbes for her “truly collaborative nature,” Amy also started and co-leads the Fam Tech Founders Collaborative, a network of over 130 founders who are solving for the needs of caregivers.  A regular speaker and author advocating on behalf of parents at work, Amy has written for or been featured in The Wall Street JournalForbesFast CompanySlateInStyle, and others, and her book ‘Tending,’ will be published by Nationbuilder books in March 2021.

For more information about Amy Henderson on social media:  Instagram and Twitter and Facebook or via the website www.tendlab.com.

Connect with Access to Inspiration on social media via Twitter  and Facebook  and Instagram and LinkedIn

Amy Henderson Transcription – Building a Better Future for Working Parents

Sue: Hello, I’m Sue Stockdale and welcome to Series Six of the Access to Inspiration podcast, the show where you can get inspiration from people who may be unlike you. As always we hope their stories and insights enable you to transcend your day-to-day challenges. And reflect on what you are capable of achieving our first guest to kick off this new series is Amy Henderson.

She is the founding CEO of TendLab, and one of the leading voices in the US on the critical role that parenting and caregiving has on developing the future of work. I really enjoyed speaking to Amy and one of the points that resonated with me and the conversation. Is it influencing change can be more impactful when you bring together people from diverse backgrounds to collaborate together and learn from one another.

And that’s part of the ethos of this podcast that even when you hear from somebody who has a different background or lives in a different country to you, something in what they say resonates with all of us at a human being level. And that we realize perhaps we are more similar than we are different.

Well I’m delighted that so many of our listeners have told us how they’re loving the podcasts and find them enjoyable and thought provoking. Please keep spreading the word. According to the website, Listen Notes, Access to Inspiration podcast is now ranked in the top 10% globally of the most popular shows according to their Listen Score.

So we’re really pleased about that. And so on with the episode, it’s a couple of minutes over our normal length. But I hope you will agree that Amy has some very interesting things to say. I began by asking her where the idea of TendLab came from.

Amy: [00:01:57] So I was running an organization I had co-founded with Van Jones and the rock star Prince called Yes We Code, which was around increasing racial diversity in the tech sector. When I accidentally got pregnant with my third child. And when she was one, I have three under the age of four, and I just felt like the wheels fell off the bus. I could no longer continue to function with any real competence is what it felt like. And so, while I was out on parental leave because I’m in America and I was very fortunate to be in the 14% of Americans who had access to paid family leave.

We are the only economic counterpart to the UK in the world that does not have paid parental leave. So while I was fortunate enough to be out on leave, I started calling, up, first the working moms, and then eventually also the working dads that I most admired to say, look, is it this hard for me to be a working parent because of me and my unique shortcomings in the bad decisions I’ve made?

Or is it just this hard to be a working parent, particularly in the U S. And I found it’s just [00:03:00] hard to be a working parent in the U S and the majority of  the people that I called up felt as though they were regularly family network with their careers or at home with their kids or both, but most people weren’t acknowledging it sometimes even to themselves, how bad they felt about the way they were performing.

But the second thing that happened, and this is what applies to, I think, any parent anywhere is it. We were forging ourselves that Parenthood possibly more than anything else was. Forcing us to develop skills, capacities, ways of being in the world that made us better in all areas of our lives and particularly in our careers.

But the critical thing about that second point that it could unlock these capacities is that it was only possible. If we had a certain level of support. In  the absence of support, our capacity to function actually significantly degraded. And then I have a little bit of a background in neuroscience. So I took these hundreds of interviews I did, and I coded them with the data scientist.

And then I looked into research from other disciplines, particularly neuroscience, but also evolutionary biology, evolutionary anthropology, the future of work game studies, management studies, a lot of different research. And I found a couple of things. According to one of the main neuroscientists I interviewed Dr. Ruth Feldman, who teaches at the Yale school of medicine that the greatest potential for plasticity is in the years surrounding the birth of one’s child. And that’s true for both moms and engaged dads and non-birth parents of all genders. If they show up for the job. And that if there’s this critical window of neurological development and we aren’t meaningfully supporting it resourcing and, or even acknowledging that it’s happening, that’s a real problem.

And so I built my business TendLab to address that, but to get back to our original point about the building out of the social media and all the things. Having been a movement builder from yes, we code and other previous work that I’d done, I knew how to build out the external brand. So the yes we code brand or from the previous work, the sort of the brand of the venture itself.

But I didn’t know how to build my own personal brand, but what I’ve learned from my work is that, and motherhood taught me this. Actually I would say that if I don’t let myself be central to this story, Then I’m not valuing myself enough to tell the story.

Sue: [00:05:11] That’s an important distinction in terms of the motivation to put yourself in the front. I’m not hearing it’s ego led, but more like mission led.

Amy: [00:05:21] Right? And for me, it was a big courageous leap because I grew up in the school of thought, which is that you care about the movement and you have to get yourself out of the way. And your ego is a detriment to success. And what I have learned through motherhood is that. If I don’t take care of myself and if I don’t acknowledge and value what I need and my own presence, then I can’t actually show up as a mom in any real, meaningful, helpful way. And I can actually show up in my career or in any relationship if I don’t allow myself to exist and honor what I need.

Sue: [00:05:53] What makes us situation distinctive in the US compared to other countries in the world. And Amy, is it that people have [00:06:00] higher expectations of what success looks like? What makes it unique and different?

Amy: [00:06:04] I’ll tell you what I found in the research, but I’d also love your thoughts around why it’s so hard to be a working parent in the U S is that first we don’t have any paid family leave. We’re the only nation in the world that doesn’t have that besides Papua new Guinea, but all the other critical levels of infrastructure that most other governments in our economic counterparts provide like some form of subsidized early childhood education, regardless of income level. We don’t have that here in the US. I would honestly say that one of the biggest things is sort of our American ethos. We are about individualism that we pull ourselves up individually by our bootstraps and make ourselves successful by our own free will. And what we know from research is that that’s not actually how humans have evolved.

How we succeed or how we thrive. We are not individualistic creatures that we are by nature, social creatures. I had the great fortune of meeting with a bunch of different scientists to help me understand this. One of them was Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, who is an evolutionary anthropologist who’d studied motherhood.

And what I’ve learned from her is that our brains are social brains that we are wired for conformity. Neurologically. Our brains will lead us. To agree with others around us, more than they will allow us to see acknowledge or live into the truth.

Sue: [00:07:24] I guess we want to feel included and we want to feel safe. So we want to be a, having a community around us to have that sense. Is that what you mean?

Amy: [00:07:32] Yeah. I think that’s a good way to put it. When I was in high school, I was a freshman and I was invited into a senior class psychology experiment to be a subject in this study that the senior class was running. So I was lined up next to three other people who were, I didn’t know this at the time, they weren’t actually subjects, but they were planted subjects and there was a group and we were each shown a piece of paper that had four lines on it.

And I was told in a minute, you’re going to be asked, which of these lines is the longest line, but I was shown the piece of paper first. And then they went back down the line and they asked. Subject number one, fake subject number one, which is the longest line on the paper and subject number one said B and subject number two said B and subject number three said B.

And when they got to me the lines actually blurred on the page and I couldn’t actually see what was in front of me because the truth was that C was the longest line, but everybody else, the seniors and I’m a freshmen had all said B was, and the words blurred together on my page. And I just said B and the whole class erupted in laughter.

And they were like, Oh, this stupid freshmen. And I walked out the door. Well, come to find out while I was researching this book, Tending: Parenthood and the future of work, is that 75% of the time people will do exactly what I did in that situation, that they will say that the truth is what other people said. It was, even if it’s not. The truth. And then I found this great work by Dr. Gregory Burns in which he put people into FMRI machines to see what happens to their brains when the truth is [00:09:00] dissonant with what everybody else says. And what he found is that the brain actually hijacks us. That the regions that are responsible for conscious decision-making, don’t respond when everyone around us disagrees with us, the regions of the brain that light up, or the regions that are associated with actually perceiving that information.

So in the case of visual stimulus, if everybody around us says that B is the longest line, the region of our brain, that lights up is the region of the brain responsible for processing visual information. And that that region, short circuits hijacks us and tells us that you should agree with what everybody else agrees with.

And I’m going to alter what you actually see or make it difficult for you to actually see the truth so that you will conform. And scientists think that that’s because from an evolutionary standpoint, our ability to survive as a species was dependent upon us conforming to group norms. And so over time that’s been selected for, to such a degree that we really struggle to see the truth sometimes. And I think in America, because we live in such an individualistic culture, the expectation is that we can do it on our own. And the truth is that no one can parent on their own, at least not with drastic negative consequences to their own mental health and to their child’s developmental well-being.

Sue: [00:10:18] So if I was being devil’s advocate, Amy, I might say, how did it take you until you had your third child to get a sense of this? Or was that the so-called straw that broke the camel’s back?

Amy: [00:10:29] Yeah, that’s a great question. I had never in my entire life ever wanted to be at a stay at home mom. And I’d been fairly ambivalent about having kids. And then I got pregnant with my first and I had my first and I was about five months pregnant. And the doctor said, you can either have your career or your kid, but at the rate you’re going, you can’t have both. Um, and I had developed a pretty intense pregnancy related complications, not ever anticipating that I would do this.

I ended up stopping, working and staying home with my daughter and then had my son for two years. For me, that was a big rip away from the sort of reality that I’d always accepted as true and never saw value in caretaking. I remember as a younger person saying, I will never stay home. I’m not going to sit up and watch TV, soap, operas, and eat Bon bons all day.

I’m going to do something important in the world. I’m going to make a difference. And then here I was doing this job that I first didn’t even know was a job. I didn’t know it was difficult to raise children. I didn’t know. It was hard to take care of a newborn. It was the hardest job I’ve ever done still to this day.

And everybody around me, all of my friends who were very ambitious career people, ambitious activists, advocates would come to visit. None of them had kids and they’d come to visit me and they would say, so what do you do all day long? Are you learning a new language? Are you picking up a new hobby? Like what are you doing?

And I couldn’t tell them, but I knew I was more tired than I’d ever been. I was busy all day long, but I couldn’t point to any product or deliverable or [00:12:00] anything that I had accomplished. I had just kept this little human alive and that wasn’t seen as a valid accomplishment. And so I’d already started to rip away from the social agreement of what it is to be a human at that point, at least in the U S.

And then when I had my second, I got really intense. It wasn’t officially diagnosed, but I now can look back and realize that I had pretty intense postpartum depression after my son was born and we couldn’t afford for me to stay home any longer. So I went back to work when he was three months old and co-founded this large organization and this national organization. And I threw myself into the work and felt as though I became visible and valid again, you know, I was a human again in the way that I hadn’t been while I was a stay-at-home mom. And that was true, not just externally, but also internally. I started to feel like, Oh, I have value and merit. And I loved, I loved, loved, loved the time that I was home with my kids, but I also started to feel as though I was wispy and transparent as if I was sort of this ghost of itself.

And when I threw myself back into work, it was amazing. It all came back. And what my research has since brought into clear focus for me, that when I went back after being home for those two years, that I was much more potent than I had been before. That my capacity to show up in my work was much greater.

And that was something that certainly in the U S that is not anything I had ever thought was possible. I’d never heard that, you know, showing up to invest in caretaking for your children will enhance your ability to perform in your career. I’d only ever heard the opposite.

Sue: [00:13:32] It’s really making me think, Amy, the way you’re describing your situation, your experience that you were bringing to bear. Is it you’re bringing what I would call hard science to address an issue that some people might call a soft issue where it’s a people related issue. And I’m wondering if you think that that’s, what’s having an impact these days because of the facts and data that you’re providing to give some evidence to what you’re talking about and trying to create this movement.

Amy: [00:14:01] Yeah, I think that’s a really great question. Um, I think there’s a couple different ways to look at it. So what I ended up doing after doing all that research is I started a company called TendLab. And my original co-founder had been the first VP of HR and diversity and inclusion at Twitter. And she’d started a whole bunch of programs to support parents in the workplace at Twitter, earned a great reputation for herself and for Twitter.

And we joined forces and launched a business called TendLab, which was originally a consulting company, designed to optimize the workplace for parents. And we thought, given her experience and background in relationships and given my experience and background in relationships, that people would be banging down our doors to hire us.

And we had a few really good clients where we could learn a lot and get deep inside. But for the most part, nobody cared about parents in the workplace. It just, wasn’t a thing. She, and I both knew from having worked in diversity, equity and inclusion that certainly addressing the need to diversify the workplace from a racial equity [00:15:00] standpoint was needed and addressing it from a gender standpoint was needed.

But the idea that we were talking about parents more broadly and specifically that we were saying. That the most important group that should be resourced and supported and showing up for Parenthood are men that if we allow dads to show up for Parenthood, it actually creates better outcomes for everyone, especially women and especially women of color.

When we were saying that nobody could hear us. And we were saying something that nobody would listen to. And so I double downed on the research, if we’re trying to say, okay, how can I articulate this in a way that people will hear it? And that’s where I got deep into the science of what happens to our brains and how have we evolved as a species.

And what do we know about the future of work and the skills that are needed in the future of work? I just nerded out on all the research, but then also I tested it out in a bunch of different audiences. And I’m happy to say that in one presentation that I gave after I’d had a few flops. Um, I gave a presentation to a room of folks at Yelp and afterwards I had a young male manager who didn’t yet have kids come up to me and say, Oh my God, Amy, I feel like I should go out and have kids immediately, so I can be better at my job.

And then I thought I have communicated effectively what I’m trying to say. And so I do think it really is for that initial phase for me, and I’m going to quote, my friend, Genesa Greening, who runs the largest nonprofit in Canada called the BC Women’s Health Foundation. She says that she’s found was most effective at influencing people is when you marry story with science and when you marry morality with economics.

And so I think what we’ve been doing at TendLab is some version of both. The very personal stories that speak to Parenthood and how hard it is and the skills that can unlock. And then the very rigorous science behind. What validates that. And then I think right now, because of COVID, we’re in a moment where the morality of it, we must support working parents. Here in the U S, 2.4 million women have left the workforce.

Most of them were lower income women of color during COVID in large part because of their caregiving responsibilities. That is. In many cases immoral, in fact that we don’t have the infrastructure to support these women, but also it doesn’t make sense from an economic standpoint, if we can’t maintain the economic engine of our nation, there is drastic consequences to that.

Sue: [00:17:23] I love the way you described these different factors that you’re bringing together. And as you are listening to this episode, you might be curious to know what other similar episodes we have in our back catalog. And that’s where our playlist might help you just go on over to our website, access to inspiration.org and click on the link where you will find a number of curated playlists around particular themes.

Remember, you can also find us on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter, just type in access to inspiration. And you’ll find us there. Now back to Amy. One of the things that I’ve certainly seen [00:18:00] in the UK with COVID Amy is because many people are working from home in a virtual context. The lines between work and home and family let’s call it have become much more blurred.

So people are sitting doing a zoom conference call or a Microsoft teams call with their child on their knee, or their dog comes into the background or their partner shows up and we see them in casual clothes and we see a bit of their houses They become real people. And not just the masks they may wear at work. I’m wondering if that’s something that you’ve observed and experienced. So whether that’s actually helping with this integration between us as human beings, outside of work and inside of work.

Amy: [00:18:37] Wow. I love that question. And I’m hopeful. We’ve been in conversation with and working with a lot of different companies from small mom and pop shops to large multinational corporations.

And I do feel as though we’re at a tipping point and I don’t know which way we’re going to go, which is why I’m so committed to doing the work that I do. And the tipping point is this, there’s this belief that as soon as the vaccine is rolled out in mass, we can just go back to the way it was. Phew. So if you just go back to the way it was.

Or, and this is the direction that I’m pushing us towards, or we can admit that it wasn’t working before that the way we operated, regardless of where we lived with this segmenting of home life and career, life, home, self career self, that it actually wasn’t sustainable or healthy or good. And that we can use this moment to create a better future.  One that allows us to be more whole, more engaged, more integrated, and one that allows us to value the power of care and to resource ourselves as individuals, as communities, as companies, as a global society to value caretaking and the way it impacts our own development, not just the people we’re caring for, but who we become in the process.

Sue: [00:19:54] So in terms of you taking your skills that you’ve learned from being a parent. What are they that now enhance your work?

Amy: [00:20:04] I can say what we learned in coding all the interviews. And then I’ll tell you personally, for me, what we know from that research is that showing up for Parenthood, especially in that first year of your child’s life significantly enhances your capacity for emotional intelligence, courage, efficiency, and productivity, purpose. And this is the big one in today’s modern workplace, the capacity to collaborate. And what we know about the workplace of the modern era, the one that we have today, and the one we’re moving towards is that the capacity to collaborate possibly more than anything else is the critical skill for thriving.

And that’s true for us as. Smaller organisms of families. And that’s true for us as a global community that has to work together to solve for the challenges that we are facing at this moment in history. I mean, never before have we faced the rapid changes to our environment that we’re facing right now.

Never before have we faced the rapid pace at which technology is developing or the [00:21:00] exponential rate at which we’re becoming a globalized society. We’ve never faced these acceleration of challenges. That we have right now. And if we’re going to make it past this gauntlet of time, we’re going to have to learn how to work together.

Sue: [00:21:11] So in terms of those collaboration skills, are those critical in your role as a movement builder?

Amy: [00:21:18] Oh, I love that question, Sue. You’re good. Um, I love that so much. Yes, I think so. I think so. I, I, I’d never, nobody’s ever asked me that. I have a girlfriend named Lara Jackle Dickinson, who is someone that I hold in very high professional regard. She is a movement builder also. And she founded this really powerful movement that has basically been galvanizing the CEOs of companies and the sustainable industry space. So think sustainable foods and products. She’s been galvanizing them to take collective action to create a better future. And so this group of CEOs under her leadership, Started a project called the climate collaborative, where now over 2000 companies have signed on to agree to reduce their carbon footprint in very concrete, specific ways.

And she’s now launched another initiative called the Jedi Collaborative, which is around increasing diversity and the leadership positions within organizations around the world. And it’s really powerful to watch her deploy these skills. And so we were away last weekend and we were talking about it, how having children, she said it was almost like. The matrix became available to her in a way that it hadn’t before. And she could see the ways in which things could come together. It was visible to her. She could see the outline of the actions that needed to be taken and the groups that needed to be mobilized. And those things that needed to be said, the conversations that needed to be fostered to enable this work to succeed and she could take the actions necessary to mobilize others to move it forward. What I would take away from this weekend that we spent together was the understanding that our own individual action wasn’t enough, that it had to be part of a bigger core set of actions that needed to be organized. And that we particularly as mothers were capable had the capacity to sit in that position of mobilizing others to action and holding the space for that to happen, empowering others, to step up and identify their role in a larger movement. That was about all of us that we could move forward together.

Sue: [00:23:35] That’s a really powerful visual idea that you’ve given us Amy.  I can kind of picture that in my head. And I’m seeing it as a bigger system. And then I’m also thinking about the system that is an organization and how the activism mobilizes the system within an organization. If you want workplaces in America to be valuing the skills that parents bring, how does that happen within organizations? Is [00:24:00] it covert or overt change within organizations themselves?

Amy: [00:24:04] That’s such a great question. And I could say that we’re living the experiment right now, trying to figure that out. But one of the things that we write about in my book, we started TendLab because we identified the tech founders and leaders who are really developing the future as the leaders that we wanted to influence the most.

And I had this opportunity to discover how hard it was, even for them to value care. And I’ll share with you what happened. I was asked by the wives of tech founders. And some of them were quite sizable companies. I was asked by the wives of tech founders to help them convince their husbands. To take parental leave when they had their babies.

And so none of these husbands, by the way, even today know that I worked with their wives. So I worked exclusively for the wives. And so we would start out and I would work with her to build her argument and we would share all the science, all the data we would start with. It’s better for your child and their development.

And there’s a really significant research around. If a dad takes parental leave, that increases their emotional and intellectual wellbeing for the long run. That didn’t impact any dad, not one. We said, okay, it’s better for your wife and her career. And there’s really great research around that. You know, in Sweden every month of parental leave, a dad takes the wife’s long-term earning potential increases by 7% per year.

Really significant research. We talked about how it was good for their marriage. Great research around if a dad takes parental leave. Success of the marriage on all variables is greater. It didn’t matter. We talked about the dads own development, the same information I shared at Yelp when I had a young man come to me afterwards and say, I have to go have kids immediately so I can be better at my job that didn’t influence any of the dads at all. The one thing that influenced two of the five dads I worked with was the argument that if they took parental leave, it would send the message that their company was parent-friendly caregiver friendly. It was a good place to work and it would increase their ability to recruit and retain top talent.

That was the only thing that influenced two of the dads. And in those cases, neither one of them were willing to make it a public announcement or to make it visible to their investors because they were afraid they would lose credibility among their investors. And to be clear, like these were good men, they were not heinous barbaric, Neanderthal men.

They just really believed that as a father and a breadwinner and a caretaker that their primary responsibility was for the financial wellbeing of their family and that it was against their programming, I would say, but also, maybe even their instincts, it was against everything they believed in to jeopardize their ability to be the best breadwinner they could possibly be for their building family.

And they felt rightly so. Because research shows that this is accurate, that if they signal that they were going to show up as a caretaker, that it would undermine their ability to succeed, undermine their professional reputation. So that’s what I learned about working inside the companies. And so that’s why the latest version of my business, [00:27:00] TendLab and I brought in another co-founder we’re really focused on changing our public narrative on Parenthood’s impact on career performance, which is in part influencing company leaders, but it’s a much bigger strategy based on the great success that Norway and other Nordic countries have had where they basically brought together a powerful coalition of all different stakeholders from within the countries. They brought celebrities and they brought together government leaders and business leaders and advocates and researchers. They brought together a large coalition of people to say, how can we enable women to not just stay employed, but to rise into leadership positions in this country.

And they decided to double down on making parentally by dads, something that was. Universally taken and they created a bunch of policies that enabled that to happen. And guess what they found, they found that all women, not just mothers, are more likely to rise into leadership positions when men show up for parental leave and they found that the stigma associated with showing up for parental leave significantly declined for both men and women. And now if you’re in the Nordic countries and you are a dad and you don’t take parental leave, it’s seen as though you have a character defect.

Sue: [00:28:07] So the world has changed in those countries.

Amy: [00:28:10] Yes. And how can we apply that across the globe so that it’s seen as a character developing opportunity, as opposed to a detriment to what you do in the world.

Sue: [00:28:18] So it does sound like it’s quite a tough mission that you’re on with TendLab, Amy. There’s a lot to go at and a lot of people’s minds to change and action to be taken. What motivates you to keep going? What inspires you when you’re having that day? And you’re perhaps questioning whether it’s all worth it?

Amy: [00:28:34] Not to be honest, I had that last week, my kids are all zoom schooling at home and they have been since March of last year, instead of the, for a full school year, they will have been zoom schooling  at home and. That’s a five, seven and nine year old doing zoom school at home. And I, while preparing the 7,000 snack in the morning while trying to do my work and they needed my help. I’m living what I’m teaching I’m so in it right now. And I would say that what keeps me going is a previous experience I’ve had with coming through extremely challenging circumstances and how it gave me an opportunity to become a better version of myself. And I know that I’m in that moment right now for myself personally, this has been extremely challenging, but I have the opportunity to come out of it better.

And having had a previous experience with 20 years ago, I came home from the peace Corps as a volunteer in East Africa, in Malawi for a year. And I came home from that experience as did many other volunteers in my group with PTSD and. At first, I thought I was damaged and I was never going to be the person that I’d been before.

It’s true. I was never going to be the person I was before, but that experience made me with a lot of hard work. It gave me the opportunity to become a more honest, compassionate, effective version of the woman I had been before. And [00:30:00] I know from that experience, which was incredibly hard that there are great gifts that come from challenges.

And what keeps me going and the reason I’m so passionate about this work, and I’ve made a lot of sacrifices to do it is because I know that if we can frame it that way, not just for us as individuals who are grappling with the challenging time we’re in, but as a greater community of companies, families, nations, if we can recognize that this is an opportunity for us to change the things that have been broken for a long time, there’s a much better future waiting for us. I’m committed to playing my part in building that better future.

Sue: [00:30:37] Wow. There’s not much we can say to that powerful message that you gave there. Amy, I can just sense that level of resilience and commitment that you have to what you’re focusing on and the movement you’re creating. So if our listener wants to find out more about you and TendLab, how might they  do that on social media. And of course, the book that you’ve been talking about as well in this conversation, how do they find out all about those things?

Amy: [00:30:59] So you can find the book at amyhenderson.org, and you can sign up there for our newsletter. You can sign up there to get an early advanced digital copy. My publisher is really passionate about this topic and so for the first couple of months, They’re allowing select early readers to have access to the digital galley. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter at AmyTendLab, you can find me at AmyHendersonAuthor on Facebook. Now you can find me on LinkedIn and then my business, TendLab, you can go find us at TendLab.com

Sue: [00:31:32] fantastic. We’ll put all links to those things on our show notes. And I’m sure people can follow up with you from there. It’s been wonderful to speak to you today. And I think you’ve really left us with a sense of your commitment to helping people really leverage the value of parenthood in  the workplace, not only I hope in America, but around the world to our listeners everywhere. So thank you so much for today.

Amy: [00:31:53] Thank you, Sue. Thank you. This was really fun. You asked great questions.

Sue: [00:31:57] I hope you enjoyed our conversation. And maybe it has caused you to reflect on how the skills of caring and parenting can be of great value within the workplace. Next week, I’ll be in conversation with Rob Lawrence, who is host and producer of the inspirational creatives podcast, and another person who is passionate about the power of sound. I hope you can join me then.